One hesitates to write about Barack Obama. Not because of the predictable outcry from his supporters, but because whatever position of Obama’s you write about may be changed by the time you hit the Publish button on your website.
But I can’t pass up the opportunity to write on his recent comments about being embarrassed by the American’s relative lack of foreign language ability.
You know, it's embarrassing when Europeans come over here, they all speak English, they speak French, they speak German. And then we go over to Europe, and all we can say [is], "Merci beaucoup." Right?
My concern about Americans’ inability to speak French is about as great as my concern about the price of arugula. I would imagine that the vast majority of Americans feel the same way.
What I can’t understand is the infatuation of the last two Democratic Presidential candidates with France and the candidates’ inordinate desire to be in the good graces of a nation who has spent much of the last 60 years being a thorn in the side of the United States.
Why should Obama be embarrassed about visitors to France not speaking French but not have similar embarrassment about those traveling to Poland, or Moldova, or Georgia, or South Korea; all countries who stood with us in the Iraq war and none of which bilked the Iraqi people out of billions of dollars in the Oil for Food Program. Shouldn’t we be more embarrassed as a nation that we kowtow to the French after so many slaps and relegate nations like Poland to second class status? Why isn't Obama embarrassed that we can't speak Polish? Why is it more important for us to speak French then it is to speak Swahili or Thai or Arabic?
And do any of the people bemoaning the number of Americans who speak only one language really think the opinion of Americans would change if we all took up another language? After all, George Bush speaks fluent Spanish (EDIT: Grade school level according to Vicente Fox) and it hasn’t helped his standing in the world and hasn’t earned him any praise from those who decry our ethnocentricity regarding languages.
Anyway, for those who want to spare Barack Obama embarrassment when he goes to his first G8 summit next year, you can sign up to take a French class at Parkland. Who knows, perhaps after this recent pontification he'll even take a French class himself.
Well put, Mark.
Ameryka nie może dostarczać Barack Obama.
I guess it's pretty clear that you're not an arugula farmer, then. Because being concerned about the plight of American farmers is just so elitist. And French.
JJ you may need to lay of the beer, buddy.
Americans don't need to speak multiple languages. I could walk 2,000 miles in any direction from here and I'd still be in a location where the primary language was English, that just isn't so in Europe. (And for the record, I do know other languages).
We don't have employers clamoring for foreign language skills, we have them clamoring for the ability to speak and write. They want tech skills. None of the above are we producing very well right now...
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j
Part-Time Pundit
George Bush "fluent" in Spanish? I've my four semester requirement of college-level Spanish behind me and one thing I'm absolutely sure about is that George Bush is not fluent in Spanish, at least judged by any time I've heard him butcher that language.
As for that France thing, perhaps one's appreciation of history, or lack of it, has something to do with that. The French helped us in our revolutionary struggle. Then France underwent a revolutionary struggle that -- besides the Russian Revolution -- is the only one that competes with our own in terms of its global pervasiveness and magnetism among those struggling for a better life or political system. If you don't or can't appreciate that, then, yes, you might be missing the back story.
I agree that Obama has a lot to be embarrassed about these days. The provincialism, pettiness, and small-mindedness that centers around Americans and English -- a language that many often have a no more than a basic grasp of -- is not one of them, though. As a military brat, I can only agree with him that subject.
I'm bilingual, I can't imagine only speaking one language. Still, most people I've known in my life have only known one. (One or the other of mine, of course, depending on what country I'm in at the time, and every one of them firmly convinced that THEIR language and only THEIR language is truly transparently easy to understand and also able to convey the full range of human thought.)
Still, it's amusing to run into the "well I took all four years of the foreign language offered at my high school, surely I'm fluent now?" or the "if I major in a foreign language in college, surely I'll be fluent?" crowd. Yeah. NOT. *picks up eyes that rolled under the desk*
I don't demand people be multilingual but I absolutely WILL take the opportunity to ridicule people who will spout platitudes about how trivially easy it must be to learn another language in a few months (!!!) based on old family lore about previous generations related in the third hand at best, when they have never actually tried seriously acquiring another language themselves. THAT is the provincialism that gets most of the laughter, at least in my circles.-- Akibare!
I will add one more thing, though - to know another language, and particularly to read media in another language, is to realize, on a gut level, that there are entire worlds out there which don't view the US as the be-all and end-all of existence or particularly the arbiter of anything. The US is just another foreign country full of funny looking foreigners, even if a powerful one. Certainly it's often behind in media or fashion.
Watch cartoons. When you watch them abroad, and the aliens land on Earth, and they say "take us to your leader!" the US is entirely uninvolved, of course. The aliens, as all right thinking prescient aliens would, want to talk to the leaders of Country X, wherever the cartoon is originating. That is the true center of the world, that is where politics actually matter.
So in a sense, it's a way of realizing the reality of relativity, even in the world where some countries have absolute military power greater than others, when it comes to the day to day, everywhere thinks they are the center of the world, and in very real sense, they are.
Things that are HUGE issues in the US, the rest of the world? They don't care.
Wow, another irrelevant rant from Shelden on Obama. I think it's awesome you chose to jump on French. I hate French. I agree--if you live in Illinois, you should probably study Polish and another dozen languages before you study French.
But that has nothing to do with what he said. He was talking about how immigrants should learn English, but that multilingualism is a good skill. He happened to choose French as an example, but nowhere does he say or imply or even come close to suggesting that French is somehow more important than other languages. In fact, he uses Spanish as his first example. But hey, perhaps Mr. Shelden cannot handle the mere expression of the utility of French. We love you Mark, even when you go all PC on us (is that why you included PC in the thread tags?).
Secondly, the author of the piece on Salon actually pre-addressed all of the points you came up with Mark before you wrote them. That's entertaining.
Bambenek's point is roundly false--he could easily walk less than 2,000 miles to communities that discourse primarily in something other than English--unless he has recently moved to Anarctica, in which case, I apologize in advance. I can walk a mile out my front door and hear nothing but Spanish or 3-4 miles and hear only Polish. Or 3 miles and hear only Cantonese. Or...well you get the picture.
But beyond that, the gain in learning a world language is not merely in its function, but in the growth in empathy and language skills that will spring from the interaction with an additional language.
Simply put, language skills are language skills and we all could use more of them (especially those of us who think that our President is "fluent in Spanish"). I hope we get a president who understands that, even if he happens to be a rapidly right-moving fellow.
Did Obama actually answer the question? Does he think the US should be printing ballots in foreign languages? Street signs?
As always, Xian i right and the conservatives are wrong, and so fundamentally wrong as to look stupid.
America always has been, and always will be, a multi-lingual society. To pretend otherwise is just plain ignorant. I would even go so far as to say we don't do enough to teach foreign languages in schools. Linguists have long known that the neural pathways for language ability solidify at puberty. If children aren't exposed to language learning before that age, it is much harder for them to learn languages later. Most US schools don't even begin language instruction until junior high or high school. This is a grievous situation that needs to be corrected.
However, one thing that binds us together as a nation is a common language. To not have that would be to divide our country into separate regions. Allowing any other language to be used for the conduct of official national business would be a gross mistake and would take us down the path towards national division.
Does that agree with Obama's position? It's likely, he's a smart man, for a crook.
Several years ago a distant cousin of mine came to the United States to visit and meet his "American" relatives. He shared that English is the language of commerce and it is a vital process of being able to conduct business across borders. Additionally another friend of mine lived in Italy when her spouse was doing post doctorate work at the University of Trieste and she taught in a private school while there. The children in Italy are taught to be bilingual at an age when language skills are still developing. Here, on the other hand, it's not part of the public school curriculum until middle school. In that respect it would be useful to have an overhaul of how we teach foreign languages. I took Spanish in high school and am not fluent by any stretch of the imagination. If I were to suggest anything to Obama it would be to focus less on embarrassment and more on encouraging states to make curriculum changes so that kids can pick up on foreign languages before the age of 10.
Give Mark a break. He is on to something. It's hard enough living in Champaign (French) Illinois (French), or travelling to Chicago (French) or St. Louis (French).
I think I'll drive down the boulevard and go to the restaurant and eat an omelette.
"There's nothing particularly exceptional about Obama's position, unless you are an English-only partisan cowering in fear of your cultural identity being swamped by funny-looking people from strange lands."
I have very little to add to the above statement other than to ask Mark, "Ya want freedom fries with that?"
Sheesh.
Hey Mark, when the French gave us the Statue of Liberty, did we say, "Gollee, that thing sure is purty" or did we say, "Merci"?
You know Mark if you were less partisan you might have reacted to what Obama actually said, instead of trying to create a basis to belittle him. He didn't say, even in the snippet you quoted that everyone should learn to speak French. Nothing he said indicates any infatuation with the French. Even the little bit of what he said that quoted could more reasonably be interpreted to mean that everyone should learn to speak German because they already know a little French. The same article that you linked to includes this quote from Obama: "You know, no, I'm serious about this. We should understand that our young people, if you have a foreign language, that is a powerful tool to get a job. You are so much more employable. You can be part of international business. So we should be emphasizing foreign languages in our schools from an early age, because children will actually learn a foreign language easier when they're 5, or 6, or 7 than when they're 46, like me." Put on your "American" hat instead of your "Republican" hat, Mark and tell me what's wrong with that sentiment. Our economy has become an international economy. Our kids are being beaten out for jobs by engineers from China, doctors and software experts from India, and on and on. Every one of those foreign college graduates are multi-lingual. And you want to tell our kids -- don't worry about it; you can walk 2,000 miles without having to speak anything but English. You want to know why you Republicans are losing the hearts and minds of people under 30? Go back and read your post.
You know Mark if you were less partisan ...
Wow. Wouldn't that be nice? A county clerk who doesn't spend his days rewriting Neal Cavuto's stories on this blog.
To dream the impossible dream ...
"Wow. Wouldn't that be nice? A county clerk who doesn't spend his days rewriting Neal Cavuto's stories on this blog.
To dream the impossible dream ..."
I think you should run against him in 2010, on a platform that he's too partisan. Maybe you'll do better than his opponents did with a similar message in 2006, and 2002, and 1998.
"Nothing he said indicates any infatuation with the French."
Except, you know, the part where he speaks French. Or the part where he talks about the French.
Of course, had he spoken German, it would have shown a disturbing fascination with all things Nazi. Spanish would have raised the question about whether he favors amnesty for illegal immigrants. If he's said something in Polish, as Mark suggests, the response would have been "Obama thinks every American should speak Polish? What a useless language!" God forbid he say something in Arabic, the right-wing blogs would have exploded with "He's a Muslim!" No, wait they're doing that already.
I've had to delve into source code left behind by a former postdoc from Quebec (which, according to Mr. Bambenek, must have slid off into the ocean). It's all in French. Oh yeah, that's a lot of fun. One of the seminal works in my field, which was cited in pretty much ever paper I wrote in grad school, is available only in German.
All Obama really said was that in an increasingly globalized economy, the ability to speak a second language is an advantage in getting a good job. Apparently, that stuff is just for the arugula-eaters.
I think Obama can encourage people to speak other languages or to diverisify without being embarassed. That's the part that I think people are reacting to. I, quite frankly, don't want a US Senator, much less my President, running around talking about how embarassed he is of the people he wants to represent. Perhaps Obama missed the recent surveys that found Americans were more likely to try to learn language or speak some of it while in foreign countries, than tourists from some other countries, and in the same survey, the French were found to be more demanding than Americans. I'm embarassed that we've reached a point where candidates for President are talking like this--and if that makes me some provincial unenlightened rube, so be it.
The Battle of Yorktown. Cornwallis surrenders. Squeezed between American ground forces and a French naval blockade preventing supplies and reinforcements from aiding Cornwallis, the last major battle of the American Revolutionary War was over. The United States of America is solidified. We won. because of France (which took a very heavy economic hit by supporting the fledgling US) aiding the US. While France certainly sought to confine its then enemy Britain, it was not the primary French motivation.
Why should we always look to the French as our allies? Loyalty. Hundreds of years of loyalty. The French position on Iraq is nothing compared to the USA even existing. Allies in WWI and WWII. Differences? Sure. But allies now, allies always.
Did the Poles send troops (except for Pulaski)? Did the Russians, the Spanish, the Moldavans? Swahilis, Thais, Arabs? The Italians? No. While it would be good if Americans spoke other languages, to dis Obama for suggesting Americans would be well served by learning, in this case learning languages, is just plain provincial, and shows an inferiority reserved for the ignorant (ignorant, for those of you who need to have the word ignorant defined, means not knowing, and it does not mean stupid) among us. Those who are fearful of learning, bolstered by hubris which is unattractive to most and dangerous to some.
The United States of America EXISTS because of France. And France continues to EXIST as France instead of a German state. Because of loyalty. Something Mr. Shelden does not appreciate, blinded by his hate for Obama (or any democrat it seems).
At least Mr. Shelden is consistent. He has always been, and remains, the same.
While France certainly sought to confine its then enemy Britain, it was not the primary French motivation.
You think? I'll wait for other history buffs to chime in, but I thought the only reason the fleet rolled in when it did was because it had a little free time between hunting the British in the Caribbean.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend - and the French hated the Brits then.
Not that I care of their motiviation, but I don't think it was French altruism, ideals, or loyalty that brought that fleet to our shores.
CD put it very well. Thanks.
Thank you France for what you did in the Revolutionary War. I also like the nice statute. I'm sure that at least a couple of the French are thankful for our support in WWI and WWII (although maybe those Vichyites are upset with us). I'm not sure what their support for us over 200 years ago has to do with this conversation. I could just as easily say they should have been loyal to us after we bailed them out of WWII.
I think learning other languages is a good idea. I think it should be part of the curriculum in schools. As with many of the things that Obama says, there's plenty of truth. But it doesn't stop at some generally recognized truth, but goes further into condescension. He's embarassed because I don't speak another language? Spare me. I'd rather that he was a little more embarrassed about his preacher of 20 years or his comments about all those religion clinging people in Ohio.
Obama wants to say that words mean something. Perhaps those of you who support him in his embarrassment can tell us what you think that means.
I understand that French doesn't equal France, but I really can't believe that someone would try to extend that mildly inaccurate syllogism with German = Nazi.
I suppose that learning a foreign language can give you such perspective, but it certainly isn't the only way and it certainly isn't a guarantee.
As to the infatuation with the French, I'll have to admit that it might have been an unfair extension of those characterizations from the 2004 campaign when Democrats routinely pointed to the French (kickback taking French as it turns out) as proof that we were acting with disregard to world opinion. So I'll retract that remark and assume that Senator Obama is equally embarrassed over my lack of French and Swahili....and all other languages.
Anyone else find it ironic that we've been treated to all of these catastropic carciatures of the U.S. educational system based on worthless indicators: "84% of one-eyed 10 year-olds can't find Portugal on a map!" but when a candidate actually critiques on the basis of an actually useful skill that we are deficient in, it's seen as ragging on America.
I am not surprised by a survey that suggests that Americans are "more willing" to learn a foreign language when immersed. I have no questions about the motives of my fellow Americans. The stereotypes of the "ugly American" are stereotypes that I support no more than I would support other stereotypes.
However, the fact remains that we, as a society, are still rather hostile to multilinguist, at least in some circles, like say the circles that the person who wrote this post runs in.
However, the fact remains that we, as a society, are still rather hostile to multilinguist, at least in some circles,
I actually think that we are hostile to or defensive about:
I think we're hostile to the notion that Americans learning a second language is more important than immigrants to America learning English.
Which is, I think, what Obama was (clumsily) advocating.
It turns out Mark was merely reiterating the Republican talking points of the day. Coincidentally, or not, Guiliani, Romney and other Republican surrogates all chose today to attack Obama for being embarassed that Americans don't speak French. Never mind that Obama didn't say or imply that, it's the faxed attack point for today. There'll be a different one tomorrow. Oh well, politics as usual.
Xian, I don't believe we've met, but perhaps we have. But you're somehow familiar with "the circles [I run in]." Maybe you can enlighten me about those circles. I wasn't aware of their hostility to "multilinguist"...
all chose today to attack Obama for being embarassed that Americans don't speak French. Never mind that Obama didn't say or imply that,
He didn't?
Ezra, I'm not on the fax list so yes, it is mere coincidence. Lucky for Obama that's it's just me and some guy at the RNC who feel his comment was condescending.
It's not a symbol of European superiority. It's a symbol of human competence in myraid regions of which Europe is by no means the leader. Europe is far behind large areas of Asia or Africa.
Xian, I don't believe we've met, but perhaps we have. But you're somehow familiar with "the circles [I run in]." Maybe you can enlighten me about those circles. I wasn't aware of their hostility to "multilinguist"...
Yes, we have. However those meetings have nothing to do with the fact that you are coming off extremely anti-multilingualism in your post. I assumed that you, like all of us, are in some part a product of your environment. If that was unclear and if my lack of proofreading was some part of this miscommunication, I apologize.
I think we're hostile to the notion that Americans learning a second language is more important than immigrants to America learning English.
Which is, I think, what Obama was (clumsily) advocating
Which? It was certainly clumsy, but I'm not sure what you are saying here. He was clearly advocating immigrants to America learning English. What he said--correctly--is that it shows an ignorance to assume that immigrants are somehow not learning English. Current immigrants are learning English quickly--probably more quickly than any generation of immigrants in the history of our country. He then followed up with a classic "splinter/plank" response which is more than fair.
The problem is not in immigrants failing to communicate in English. It's in native-English speakers failing to communicate in English due to their lack of flexibility. You know--the lack of flexibility that might lead one to think that immigrants with a slight accent are "not learning English" or that President Bush is fluent in Spanish.
Let's do a quick survey: How many people have actually encountered someone who cannot communicate in English at all. I don't mean has imperfect "grammer :P" I mean they can't speak any English.
How many people have you encountered who speak English quite well but choose to speak some other language within earshot? Is that cool? How do you feel about that?
It's not a symbol of European superiority. It's a symbol of human competence in myraid regions
If I can also infer that it is not a required competence in the US, then I think we are in agreement. And I am not embarrassed by that fact.
xian,
I meet people almost every day who can't communicate at all in English. Many of them have been in the US for at least a decade and often, they were born here. So actually, yes, the problem is with immigrants failing to communicate in English. If this were not the problem we wouldn't have much need for professional translators and there certainly wouldn't be any movement to have government forms printed in more than one language.
So, what was it Mark, if not a fax, an email? There was nothing condescending about what Obama said. Even taking the little snippet you quoted out of context, what he said is simply the truth. Residents of other countries can speak English and use that ability to their economic advantage; by and large, we can't speak other languages. There are some other things that are embarrassingly true about our education system: our elementary and high school students aren't being taught math and science at the same level as those of competing countries, resulting in us having to rely on immigrants to supply our health care needs, and, increasingly our high tech needs. When we suddenly realized in 1958 that the Russians were ahead of us technologically in the space race, the Eisenhower Administration put a big emphasis on teaching math and science. Puffing out our chests and saying, "We're the best," when we're not isn't being patriotic, it's just being stupid. We've gone through eight years with our leader strutting around instead of facing problems realistically. It's time for a change.
Ezra, you need to be consistent. First you say:
and now:
I'm calling shenanigans on any kids being born in the US and living here for more than 10 years and having no English. Did these kids go to school? Which one?
An ADULT working full time in some job that doesn't require much if any English, yeah, there's a good likelihood he won't learn much English - just like all the American expats who live overseas, a goodly chunk of them manage to insulate themselves in little bubbles of "English only" right down to the special "American schools" they send their kids to.
I wouldn't say knowing more than one language is a hallmark of Europeans (or any group, specifically) but of course I do think knowing more than one language is better than knowing only one. You might as well complain about people who know more math than you do being "elitist." Knowledge is a good thing.
And for the record before anyone complains, yes, I do think kids should learn the local language of the countries they live in.
Redstate, you're as bad as Sheldon and the other McCain surrogates at taking things out of context. The "that" that Obama didn't say was that he was embarrassed that Americans can't speak French. The snippet includes a sentence where Americans do speak French. The truth that Obama spoke, if you will check out the article to which Mark linked, is that Americans are disadvantaged in the international marketplace by not being able to speak other languages and that it's easier for children to learn languages than for adults.
"Which? It was certainly clumsy, but I'm not sure what you are saying here."
There are two items being compared by Obama:
I'm saying that Obama said that Item #1 was more important, to him, than Item #2. At least I think that's what he said. It was very awkwardly phrased, ironically enough, considering the topic was linguistics.
To me, that's the disturbing part, because of the policy implications.
Call shenanigans all you want, Akibare. You need to learn more about the migrant worker community. There are thousands of families living like gypsies with no oversight whatsoever. The parents make less than the bare minimum and the kids never see a school, hospital or social worker. If you'd like to see this in action, visit Florida, California, Texas, Colorado, or even Rantoul and Hoopeston.
Let's look at what Obama actually said, according to the excerpt in the article:
At no point does he say that one is more important than the other. What he does say is that people shouldn't worry about other people (immigrants) learning English, because you don't really have much control over that, but that you do have the ability to educate your children to be bilingual. And remember the context of his statement:
I think learning a second language is becoming more important than it used to be, so Obama has at least a partial point on that. It's always been more important to people who live in cities or small towns with a particular immigrant culture, such as xian's city examples, and heck some of the small towns that used to be overwhelmingly German and Swedish, etc in the midwest that have, over the generations, assimilated on the language. The Latin American influences are growing and making Spanish far more useful across the country, even in central Illinois.
I think it'd be an excellent idea to offer foreign languages earlier where studies show that the mind is more conducive to tackling the effort. But I think where Obama got himself in trouble was comparing the US to Europe, which has historically had a great deal more motivation among the people to learn a second or third language due to the dramatic language diversity in close proximity. If not to learn a neighboring country's language, at least to learn a common second language that they can fall back on. Claiming to be embarrassed about it was just a dopey thing to say for a politician in his position who is fighting rumors and his own prior gaffes that paint him as anti- or un- american.
Once again he had a fairly decent point that he totally blew by phrasing it in a way that appeals to some, but totally irritates many others. But once again the ability of the McCain camp to use it effectively is diminished by making their own headline grabbing screw ups with a serrogate making a 'malaise' comment on the economy. Such an odd campaign season. Everytime one side throws the other a bone, the other side throws it right back.
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Glock21 Op/Ed
"At no point does he say that one is more important than the other."
What?!? He says that instead of worrying about one, we should worry about the other.
I meet people almost every day who can't communicate at all in English. Many of them have been in the US for at least a decade and often, they were born here. So actually, yes, the problem is with immigrants failing to communicate in English. If this were not the problem we wouldn't have much need for professional translators and there certainly wouldn't be any movement to have government forms printed in more than one language.
I think we are talking about two different problems. Obviously, a recent arrival or a child too young to go to school will not have command of the language. When it extends beyond that, it is a serious problem, but not with immigrants' desire to learn English. It is a problem with access to basic social services like you refer to. We as a country have provided funding for outreach programs into the immigrants communities so that those with desire (which you'll find is pretty 100% of everyone) can easily and quickly learn English. However, under the current no tax and heavy spending on patronage administration, those programs have been cut
The second issue does not follow from what you say. There is a minimum standard of discourse that is necessary to interact in a language. There is an entirely different standard required to understand legal documents or be able to testify with confidence or to be absolutely sure about your own understanding of a ballot referendum.
If we want to live up to the values of our country--a welcoming meritocracy, we need to be flexible so that citizens can be the best contributors to the marketplace of ideas.
As for Gordy's point, I'd only say that there is no need for a campaign to vocalize the former--everyone agrees that it is beneficial for immigrants to learn English--most of all the immigrants themselves. All that is left to do is to make opportunities available. The second issue is needs much more active campaigning precisely because of the reactionary attitude you see in the initial post of this thread.
Prairie biker, I WILL believe it for the population of kids who never see a school. That I will certainly grant.
I just wonder how much of percentage of immigrants, legal OR otherwise, are in that "never go to school" situation? It seems to me that in such a case, anyway, there are far larger issues than mere language abilities going on.
If you shouldn't worry about one, and you should worry about the other, then that's a clear preference. Obama says words mean things, but then they don't when he misspeaks. Either he's embarrassed or he's not. Either he thinks we should all learn Spanish (although what we do when we go to France, I don't know), and not worry about immigrants coming here and learning no English, or he doesn't. There is a big difference between encouraging people to study other languages and countries and expecting that citizens and legal residents of this country adapt to people coming to our country. Isn't Obama really saying that when we're in Europe, we should try to speak the language, but when others come here we shouldn't expect the same?
It would be bad if you wet your pants, but I'm not worried that you might wet your pants.
As you said, words mean things. In this case, "preference" and "worrying about" hold very different meanings.
Yes, because you can easily affect one, but you can't affect the other (except maybe indirectly). I see it as more of a "mote in your own eye" thing. The beam in your neighbors eye is important, too, but you should concern yourself with the one in your eye first.
And I just want to point out that this was an off-the-cuff, extemporaeous answer to a question. The sort of laser-sharp focusing on every word that was said I think is a bit unfair.
And I just want to point out that this was an off-the-cuff, extemporaeous answer to a question. The sort of laser-sharp focusing on every word that was said I think is a bit unfair. As Champaign Dweller said, words mean things, unless Barack says they don't. Laser sharp focus on George Bush's off the cuff remarks demonstrates how stupid he is. With Obama it's fair. He's embarrassed, but not really. FISA is awful, but not anymore. I'll listen to the Generals, but not really. I'll end the war, unless I won't. Guns are bad, unless people want them. I'll use public financing, unless I can do better without it. Who's got the Obama rule book? I'd like a copy.
"Yes, because you can easily affect one, but you can't affect the other (except maybe indirectly)."
You can certainly affect both, especially as President. That's what the whole debate over English-only is all about.
I'll concede your point about it being an extemporaneous comment, but to me that indicates its veracity, and does nothing to relieve the troubling policy implications of his attitude towards encouraging immigrant assimilation. But the lengths which you're going to try to change what he said are pretty remarkable.
Obama never said that you shouldn't worry about immigrants learning English because it's "not important" or "less important" than Americans learning a second language. He said that "you" (meaning Americans) should worry less about immigrants learning English because he believes that they (the immigrants) mostly already will, because they have a powerful motivation to do so. Whether or not that belief is correct can be debated at great length, but it does nothing to advance the discussion to twist his words into something he didn't actually say.
In fact, he takes great pains in those remarks to re-emphasize the importance of immigrants learning English. His emphasis on what Americans should do in regards to their own language skills is, as pointed out above, only a difference in audience. Obama believes that it is important for immigrants to learn English. He also believes that it is important for Americans to learn a second language. He makes no direct value comparison between the two, no matter how anyone tries to infer otherwise. The advice to worry more about one than the other is a directed comment, intended for Americans as opposed to immigrants.
The fact that the President can affect both goals is true, but ignores the fact that Obama was not speaking here of Presidential actions. He was talking about actions that should be taken by all (or at least a significant number of) individual Americans, in the same way that there are actions that should be taken by all individual immigrants. If you are one of the Americans, you should worry more about the competitiveness and world savvy of yourself and your children as influenced by your language skills. If you are one of the immigrants, you should worry more about learning English.
Pretty simple, and pretty straightforward, and pretty much true.
Exactly. But when someone is not taking care of their responsibilities, what do they tend to do? Project. "He shouldn't be giving me a hard time! There are immigrants somewhere who are not learning English!"
Reagan's amnesty bill included a requirement for immigrants to get 40 hours of English instruction.
Kathleen Parker has a nice take on this topic.
Well, I guess we should just read into Obama's statement that what he really meant is that we shouldn't worry about immigrants learning to speak English, because they already do. The problem with that is that a lot of them don't learn to speak English--if they did we wouldn't be having this discussion. I understand there is an area of disagreement on this issue, but I think it underscores the problem: Obama is a socialist/marxist who doesn't have the kinds of values that I want to see in my President--he's ashamed of Americans, as is his wife; he wants to take more money from the wealthy (that would be you and me); he can point to no accomplishments other than the fact he won the right to run for President, etc,. etc. etc. The Chicago machine has ruined the State of Illinois--I don't want to see it extended to the rest of the country.
Obama is a socialist/marxist who doesn't have the kinds of values that I want to see in my President
If only.
Rich Lowry's, another NRO guy:
And this
'English-only', border control, legal immigration limits, driver's licenses, employment opportunities for "undocumented workers" - all related to this assimilation issue. Obama can be embarrassed if he wants that Americans can't speak foreign languages when we go to Europe, but how he stands on the above list is much more important.
Let's test this theory: how many languages does Obama speak? And hypocrisy doesn't count.
So what you're saying is that, since he only has a BA, he can't ever encourage anyone to get a Ph.D. without being a hypocrite? That makes no sense.
No Narc, that isn't what the poster was saying. If Obama said he was embarrassed by all the people without PHds while he only held a BA, then yes, that would be hypocritical.
But now that you mention it, that will probably be the next line out of his mouth. How embarrassed he is at all the people in America who haven't graduated from law school.
Here's the deal. If you don't know a second language, you're creating great embarrassment for the next President. I suggest you do something about it.
xian-
I chose my words carefully... I said *primary* language. I can walk into a Mexican retaurant here in town and here Spanish, that doesn't make it the primary language spoken in Champaign... or for that matter, it doesn't mean the menus are in Spanish or that I can't order in English. For someone with the sneering elitism that only can come from a public school teacher, you sure do have a tendency of not reading and understanding what is written.
And like I said, businesses are not clamoring for people who can speak 12 languages. They want people who can write and speak coherently. English is the primary language of commerce world-wide and certainly in the United States, and the K-12 system is not producing people who can communicate. I know several languages, I don't feel methaphysically more empathetic because of it. And I'm certainly less than convinced knowing those languages makes me a better communicator in English.
In short, it probably would be best for you and your co-workers to start producing people who could actually effectively utilize their first language before fist pounding that they need to know a second.
--
j
Part-Time Pundit
RSWB: Lowry's work is typical of cherry-picking data to suit one's conclusions. It is hardly "astonishing" that half of Mexican immigrant mothers have not graduated high school. Those statistics would be normal for any low education group entering the country. The only thing different with the immigration from Mexico is the scope of it. That has more to do with Mexico's size and proximity than anything else. After all, Mexico is by no means homogenous. It's not like Oaxacans and Western Mexicans are identical.
Furthermore, to wave off mainstream marginalization as an explanation for ethnic insulation is irresponsible. What makes multi-generational immigrants integrate is that they are allowed to feel comfortable in the mainstream. Whatever value judgment you place on it, African Americans have had a longer history in the country than most immigrant groups and they have yet to have assimilated. Asian Americans have been here in significant numbers since the early 19th century (if you don't count Native Americans) and we are still regarded as foreign. All while we have been stereotyped as the "model minority". Why do you think that is?
If we have a population of Americans of Mexican origin who are having trouble getting a firm grasp on the rungs of upward mobility, the last thing we should be doing is importing poorly educated Mexicans to further overwhelm their schools, compete for their jobs and populate their neighborhoods with people even less poorly assimilated than they are.
Why Mexicans? We attracted large amounts of uneducated immigrants from Europe--a larger percentage of the nation's population. There were challenges involved and the same calls to restrict immigration. Strangely enough, it was only the people coming from the "other" shore who suffered the strictest nativist laws.
'English-only', border control, legal immigration limits, driver's licenses, employment opportunities for "undocumented workers" - all related to this assimilation issue. Obama can be embarrassed if he wants that Americans can't speak foreign languages when we go to Europe, but how he stands on the above list is much more important.
Or he can address the real Elephant in the room--as long as we have a protracted legal immigration system, many immigrants' first experiences with our mainstream society and government will be one of not being able to trust the government to not divide your family--this is certainly my experience--my family was left on opposite sides of the ocean twice because we were the wrong race. Think about that--does that make one want to "assimilate" and live with the mainstream populace?
We are supposed to be a meritocracy. There is no job that is "my job". I'm a teacher because I'm better at it than the next person who would come along. If someone better comes along, I hope they take my job.
The government needs to remove limits, but provide a thoughtful process that is expedient and efficent and maintains positive interaction with the mainstream society--one that not only seeks to assimilate, but to exchange and mutually grow.
The historic greatness of our country has not been its ability to perpetuate and multiply itself (the ideology of the current administration), but to grow in its complexity as new Americans who share similar core values, but very different experiences and perspectives collaborate in our great society.
Barack Obama's Plan
Can't say I disagree with any of this. We'll see soon enough if he can deliver any of it.
I chose my words carefully... I said *primary* language. I can walk into a Mexican retaurant here in town and here Spanish, that doesn't make it the primary language spoken in Champaign... or for that matter, it doesn't mean the menus are in Spanish or that I can't order in English. For someone with the sneering elitism that only can come from a public school teacher, you sure do have a tendency of not reading and understanding what is written.
Well, personal attacks aside, you are still wrong. Perhaps you disagree with my assessment, and that's certainly your glorious right. But no, I understood exactly what you said, and you are still wrong. By my definition of "primary" I mean the more predominantly spoken--the first language that is likely to be used in the majority of conversations. In no place do I consider "primary" to mean "only--to the exclusion of all others". It could mean that, but such places are quite rare. You could mean "primary" to mean "the first language spoken in a government establishment", but you'd still be wrong. In fact, I'd love to hear you define what you did mean because I think it's you who don't understand your own words. But I won't take your actions to be some indictment of your entire profession. But hey, that's just my foolish perspective. (editted to be less obnoxious :))
Perhaps you should live in Quebec or Little Village or go beyond your mile requirement and live in Aso or Krakow.
The menus are in French, or Spanish or Japanese or Polish, and in many cases, they are also in English. On the West Side, many of the cashiers DO speak Polish and Spanish and English, and no, John, your or I probably couldn't get hired even though we can pompously release the beautiful English ;P.
I know several languages, I don't feel methaphysically more empathetic because of it. And I'm certainly less than convinced knowing those languages makes me a better communicator in English.
Then you are probably doing it wrong.
In short, it probably would be best for you and your co-workers to start producing people who could actually effectively utilize their first language before fist pounding that they need to know a second.
Ooh, more hateful anti-teacher and student snark. Stay classy. I was going to brag a bit about my students, but that should be unnecessary. Have a good one, John.
"For someone with the sneering elitism that only can come from a public school teacher..."
Hmmm...are you referring, for example, to something akin to the following?
"We are supposed to be a meritocracy. There is no job that is "my job". I'm a teacher because I'm better at it than the next person who would come along. If someone better comes along, I hope they take my job.
The government needs to remove limits, but provide a thoughtful process that is expedient and efficent and maintains positive interaction with the mainstream society--one that not only seeks to assimilate, but to exchange and mutually grow.
The historic greatness of our country has not been its ability to perpetuate and multiply itself (the ideology of the current administration), but to grow in its complexity as new Americans who share similar core values, but very different experiences and perspectives collaborate in our great society."
Nicely put, Xian.
Please play nicely, folks.
These people seem to be simultaneously evidence for, yet enthusiastically supporting, Mr. Bambenek's point.
I think my favorite part is the hyphen.
I don't get it. 6 in 100 Chicago public high school students will go on to get a college degree. Obama is pushing to make students more competitive in the global economy. How about making American students more productive in the US economy a priority??
(Funny sign)
And he should be able to say something other than "Si si puede."
"Well, I guess we should just read into Obama's statement that what he really meant is that we shouldn't worry about immigrants learning to speak English, because they already do."
No, you shouldn't, because that's not at all what he said or meant. In fact, you shouldn't read anything into his statement at all, because it's entirely unnecessary; he is actually quite explicit in saying directly that he thinks they will learn English, not that they already do.
Debate the truth of his assumption all you want, but please, please, please stop putting words into his mouth. People might start to think you're doing it on purpose.
Wait a second, I think that some people may have assumed that Obama speaks French based on "merci beaucoup" - or Spanish based on "si se puede." Maybe he speaks an Indonesian language since he spent some time there as a kid (Javanese? Is that a language or did I just make that up?). But my point is, ok, he wants us to speak another language, but what other languages does he speak? Does he still speak any that he studied in high school and college, which is how most people learn them (despite the fact that it's almost impossible to pick up a language in most high school classes), or did he learn as a consequence of his mother's deciding to live in Indonesia? - which is not something that most Americans have the benefit of. Seriously, I wouldn't mind knowing, because the same people that think that this is so important don't give Bush much slack for being able to speak Spanish - and perhaps he doesn't deserve much, but that just puts the lie to the idea that this is such an important thing. (full disclosure: I speak a foreign language)
It's official--he advises that he doesn't speak any other foreign langugages.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Obama.
So how is he being condescending if he's grouping himself in his "embarassment"?
The implication behind his being "embarrassed" is that those of who don't speak another language are inferior, or lacking in virtue, or have some other failing...why else the embarrassment. That he feels that for himself is his right, and he certainly could have said that. But to feel it for others is condescending.
There's one thing I've learned so far in this thread and that is Obama's flip-flop all over our liberties is not an embarassing matter here...
As for a "primary" language, in many cultures it's thought of as the language you have mastery of by the time you leave primary school, by which time you'd be pretty close to fluent in a second language, even assuming you hadn't already picked a third up along the way in the street or off TV.
People decry the general public's lack of knowledge in all sorts of areas all the time. Pundits routinely wax poetic about how the country is a grand meritocracy where the more knowledge you have the better, and it's not cool to complain that "well, I didn't have the chance to learn X Y or Z so you should give me a break on it" or "well the job doesn't absolutely REQUIRE X Y or Z so you shouldn't give people with those unnecessary skills any bonus points," no, that's considered whining or sour grapes.
Why are foreign languages any different? Knowing more than one language is an advantage, I suppose we could be sensitive to mainstream sensibilities and pretend that it's not, but what would be the point?
Sure, plenty of bilingual people are that way due to lucky accidents of ancestry or birth[1], myself happily included, but that's true of tons of other advantages, none of which anyone puts off limits for admitting that it's better to have. Not to mention that what started this entire thread was the idea that precisely because it's difficult for monolingual people to start learning a foreign language in high school, perhaps we should start them young with high expectations from the beginning.
[1] maintaining a good level, of course, requires work - take "healthy amounts of reading" for a standard single-language person and multiply it a few times
Yeah, if this is where we've gotten in the discussion--that it's not a positive thing to have skills or know stuff, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's amusing--I was accused of "sneering elitism". It seems like "sneering elitism" would be the idea that what you know is sufficient and what others know is unnecessary.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Obama. So is he the only one who is condescending, when many were so happy with Tim Johnson’s principled no vote on FISA, now so silent in Obama's new elitism.
In short, it probably would be best for you and your co-workers to start producing people who could actually effectively utilize their first language before fist pounding that they need to know a second.
As a person who works in education, I have to agree that English is not properly taught to most of our students today (please note that I don't agree with Bambi's overall tone or demeanor). I don't think that one is exclusive of the other. In fact, it seems to me that learning a second language is probably a good way to solidify the English skills. But there is definitely a lack of proper English instruction, and it has been going on for years (take a look at the writing on this blog sometime).
My proposal would be that students don't crack open a novel in school until the 11th grade, or until they prove their proficiency. I have spent too many days pounding my head on my desk wondering why 12th graders don't know what a pronoun is.
That said, I applaud Mark Shelden for utilizing this line of attack. Iran appears to have missles capable of reaching Israel, the market just dipped below 11,000, Fannie and Freddie are going to need bailing out, and Afghanistan is starting to look like it did in early 2001. Yet we are discussing whether or not Obama properly respects the English language, or wants everyone to learn Spanish, or hates his country, or whatever.
America needs to continue its globalization and one of the ways to do that is to help the young people become bilingual. It is not a controversial subject, really. English is the language of worldwide commerce today, but as any ex-pat English teacher abroad can tell you, Chinese and Spanish are rising. And twenty years from now the language of commerce may be Mandarin, with global currency balanced on the RMB. It is not elitist or unpatriotic to recognize this possibility. In fact, it seems fairly unpatriotic to *not* recognize this fact and plan for the future.
But I suppose that would be progressive thinking, not conservative thinking.
So is he the only one who is condescending, when many were so happy with Tim Johnson’s principled no vote on FISA, now so silent in Obama's new elitism.
I don't know what you mean by elitism, but I applaud Tim Johnson for his principled, if overtly calculated, stand (he does represent CU, remember). And I find Obama's stance to be a real disappointment. Now THAT is a great conversation waiting to happen. But, in the meantime, let's get back to pretending Obama hates America and the English language.
Yeah, plenty of people are upset with Obama's FISA vote. It's just that we thought this was a thread about Obama and foreign language learning, not just a general "That Obama sure does suck!" thread. But if we're bringing it up, yeah, it's a disappointment. I'm tired of candidates caving to the "oh you're soft on terrorism!!" booga-booga.
There was a letter to the editor in the NYTimes yesterday where someone said basically the same thing, disappointment.
I've written nearly half-a-dozen posts criticizing Obama's recent policy stands. It's amusing to see Runforcoverliberal criticizing others for their partisanship. There is no partisanship here.
If I could replace Obama with someone better, I would. Since those aren't the options, I've vote for him.
I would argue that the left leaning writers on this blog have been far more critical of Obama in a meaningful way than those on the right. Before someone quotes this out of context, let me elaborate:
"Obama has the middle name of a race or religion of people I hate" is not a meaningful criticism, nor is "Obama said something that I think means something in a once removed twice reinterpreted sort of way, so he hates America!" is not meaningful either.
"Obama dropped the ball on surveillance, the death penalty, and health care" is substantive, and meaningful and how many of us feel.
Xian-I am sorry I have not read your posts or I would have said so, I thought Akibares was from the heart and thoughtful. You’re comments are of course the few and do little for the overwhelming butt kissing going on. I have posted when Tim Johnson was wrong also of course he isn't running for president. I have however told people his name has nothing to do with his religion and most in the Muslim religion have nothing to do with 9/11 except to have it make them as mad and sad as it does me. I do feel that he does not understand what many in this country feel is important because of his Political Liberal Philosophy not his name it does not mean he hates American.
Bush already killed USA, currency is at its lowest in ages and inflation and housing problems are going insane.
I can't wait to get him out of office...
Guy...