Bhutto

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A person sure cannot help but admire her courage,,,many attempts have been made on her life, and still she followed her path and kept on coming. She knew that any moment could be her last,,,yet she still demanded the rights of her people. I was just thinking, do we really have anyone running for president that has even half the testicles this woman showed? She not only talked the talk, but she walked the walk. We seem to get stuck with these limp d**k's,,that even an overdose of Viagra could not get hard when it counts, oh they talk and talk,,,but can any of them walk the walk when it really counts?

Amen, her courage is that of legend for sure.  You can be sure that this will cause a few candidates to look deep, as the times have taken a very serious turn, or at least showed its face again.  Assasination has always been on the table, the future will be exponential in that regard.  I imagine Hillary is already super imposing her life for Bhutto, less the assasination of course.   I don't want to demean Bhutto, but lsten to what hillary comes up with, I'm sure it will have some type of assimilation.  My total amazement for Bhutto's courage.  The world lost a great one.

Murder is always bad, but Bhutto was no great person, unless you mean as a corrupt politician. Her corruption was in the millions, she was jailed then exiled. The Dessault bribery is well known. her support of the Taliban was well known. Her accepting payoffs from a certain precious metals dealer/smuggler was legendary in it's scope.

Guts to stand up to a potential assaasin is noble when you are noble. It is reckless when you have made so many enemies during your career, not just for your "political" work, but also for your corruption. Murder is wrong, and we should all agree that the assassinanion of any person, any world leader, Kim Il Jung and Castro included, is wrong, but don't shed too many tears for one of the most divisive and corrupt politicians of the 20th century.

Again,we judge that part of the world by standards we do not accept or practice ourselves,,I had to re-read your post twice,,,,,for a minute I kept seeing Blago,,Blago,,,,,Ryan, Ryan in there:) et al:

Who could have possibly seen that coming?

 

A very sad event, to say the least. And shocking. It always surprises me that, no matter how violent our world becomes, how shocked I still am at such things. Here's hoping Pakistan can recover ok.

 

Pakistan is a nuclear nation. Where did Pakistan get the technology?

Was it Clinton? No. Was it Jimmy Carter? No. Was it during the Reagan Administration? Yes.

Pakistan was made a nuclear nation by Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto, Benizer's father, Prime Minister, also assassinated, despite economic and political sanctions from the US.

Pakistan, unlike the US and Russia (and GB France and China) is not a member of the Nuclear Non-Priliferation Treaty. Pakistan, India and North Korea are in this club.

Ukraine, Belarus and Khazakstan have signed; not Pakistan. Isreal is in the club, too, as non-signers. Syria, which does not have nuclear weapons, is a party to the NPT.

Make no mistake. Pakistan is a full blown terrorist nation and is the world's biggest problem. North Korea is the 4 year old kid down the street compared to the grown up, psychotic, and very dangerous adult Pakistan just a few doors down.

 

I would love to see where it is exactly that the US passed nuclear technology on to Pak.

The infamous AQ Khan had stolen nuclear plans from a Dutch company he worked for while in Holland.  He was also convicted in absentia for nuclear espionage.  It has been shown over the years that he traded nuclear information with Lybia, North Korea, Iran, and China.  The US under Reagan was concened about Paks nuclear ambitions, as well as Clinton later, to the point that it enacted the Pressler amendment in 1985 warning Pak that if it continued down the path it was suspected of being on the amendment would go into effect.  With the end of the Cold War the startegic alliance was no longer needed and Pak would not certify their nuclear intentions and as a result sanctions were placed on Pak in 1990 which had the added benefit of suspending billions of dollars of military hardware that had already been negotiated.

As far as the NPT goes Pak was not going to sign it because of it its ongoing problems with India and the only other difference is that India doesn't have a rogue scientist selling secrets.  Or at least that we know of.  One must remember that in 1974 India had detonated its nuclear bomb.  Just a few years before, 1971, India and Pakistan  were involved in a military conflict over the issue of East Pak now Bangladesh.  Pak lost badly.  In 1965 they had gone at, but that war ended in a stalmate.  To say that Pak is a belligerent like North Korea refuses to take history in context.  Pakistan was and still is at a significant numerical military disadvantage with India and with India gaining the bomb it is clear why they have gone down the path they have.

The real problem inside Pak are the miltant radical Muslims primarily within their Intelligence Services that have been involved with terrorism.  In order to keep them from gaining power we must support democratic elements inside Pak.  Bhutto was a threat to that and her assassination was tragically inevitable.

 

Bhutto funded the Taliban in the hope the Taliban would preserve, or at least not molest, potential trade routes with emerging nations of central Asia.

And I don't accept the premise India has the bomb so Pakistan needs it too. Also, India has never been a threat to the US.

India developed the bomb, Pakistan stole it.

If you don't fear an unstable nuclear Pakistan, you are either very ignorant of world affairs, Pakistani, or both.

IlliniPundit's picture

"If you don't fear an unstable nuclear Pakistan, you are either very ignorant of world affairs, Pakistani, or both."

If you continue to toss around terms like ignorant in reference to those with whom you're discussing things, I'm going to start deleting your comments, regardless of how meritorious your other points are. 

This is your only warning.  I have a very low tolerance for insults aimed at other commenters from unregistered commenters.

Thank you.

What is your tolerance for comments that question another's testicular virility?? :)

I used "ignorant" correctly, that is, unknowledgeable,  e..g. the history professor is ignorant about calculus, the physician is ignorant about sailing, the astronaut is ignorant about surgery.

If ignorant is construed to mean, for example, "stupid", that is a wrong definition .Ignorant does not mean "stupid". Ignorant is not an insult.

Thanks for the warning. I will now leave, regardless of how meritorious my other points are.

 

 

IlliniPundit's picture

"I used "ignorant" correctly, that is, unknowledgeable,  e..g. the history professor is ignorant about calculus, the physician is ignorant about sailing, the astronaut is ignorant about surgery."

You used ignorant as a perjorative to describe everyone who might disagree with you, as in "The only reason you could possibly disagree with me is if you're lacking in knowledge."

That's unacceptable to me.  If you cannot make your arguments without insulting anyone, I won't miss you a bit.

Have a great day.

IlliniPundit's picture

"What is your tolerance for comments that question another's testicular virility?? :)"

I'm much more tolerant with those who bother to let us know who they are, or who register a username, even if anonymous.

I am compelled to defend myself and the use if the English language.

If anyone has been insulted by my (proper) use of specific words, I am sorry. I did not mean to offend. In point of fact, I did not offend. Let us briefly examine a different way of looking at it.

The quite proper use of the word "ignorant" which MEANS "unknowledgeable", cannot be an insult. If I had said, for example, "you are very stupid about world affairs", that would have been an insult made on a  value judgement about a person which I do not (did not) have the right to make without further evidence, well, sir, that would be an insult. If I were to say "you are either very unknowledgeable about world affairs..." that would have surely appeased you.

I guess I must use not only correct English, but politically correct language. The proper use of words does not suffice.

If I play strirng music at halftime of a football game it doesn't mean I hate Native Americans.

 

To that end, I am, and shall always remain,

Literate

IlliniPundit's picture

"The quite proper use of the word "ignorant" which MEANS "unknowledgeable", cannot be an insult. If I had said, for example, "you are very stupid about world affairs", that would have been an insult made on a  value judgement about a person which I do not (did not) have the right to make without further evidence, well, sir, that would be an insult. If I were to say "you are either very unknowledgeable about world affairs..." that would have surely appeased you."

Actually, what angered me was the either/or, connected with the absolute that they must be ignorant.  You wrote that either the reader must agree with you, or they're ignorant, with no other possibilities.  I wouldn't have cared if the "or" had been unknowledgeable or stupid or racist.

That said, I hope you'll stick around - you've obviously got quite a bit to offer.  May I suggest that you register an anonymous username, and then I'll be much more tolerant about your comments?

Thanks.

and then I'll be much more tolerant about your comments?

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to make comments, so long as I know who you are."

No thanks. Either the opinion is valid or not. It should not depend on who it is that opines.

I am fully aware this is not a public forum, this is a private, albeit very popular blog. Censor me if you want. It's your blog.

If you are up to your eyeballs in trolls that are anonymous and people who just want to be anonymous and you can't keep them straight, how you deal with that is a decision you make.

IlliniPundit's picture

Thank you - the decision I've made is that I require more courtesy and have less patience with unregistered commenters.  If you want to comment anonymously but with more leeway, just register with hotmail or other free and anonymous email account.

Have a great day.

All the talking heads are saying the assassination could have a dramatic effect on the US primaries. They seem to think that Huckabee and Obama are now toast, and that it will help Guiliani and Clinton. Just wondering what you all think about that.

To Anon:  Please reconsider the offer that IP made, you do have some good points to make,  I admit among my many failings that I am too at home with some of the baser levels of the English language,in my defense,,,I am one of those, what you see is what you get type of people. But, there is more than enough room on IP for all of us, people that can make their point using a more erudite and precise English,,,and even people like myself,that learned their English in a pretzel factory. Please continue to contribute, Sincerely Bruce Byrd

I felt badly watching President Bush make his statement about this,,,he had alot at stake on this lady and in Pak, thru all the tough times in the last few years,,this is the first time I actually saw a look in his eyes that almost seemed like he was ready to say enough is enough.  I dont know if this will detract from,,,,,or lend aid to any of the candidates,but  this murder was a serious blow to our policy, very serious,,,we staked billions, and alot of prestige to keep the current person in power to fight terror, and we were supporting Bhuto to come in and continue this fight.  About the only thing I can really conclude from this,is the terrorist won a big victory, it might just tear that country apart before it is over with.

Sorry, my anonymous comment  of 4:45 was mine. 

I'm still waiting for the answer to your anonymous statement regarding this:

"Pakistan is a nuclear nation. Where did Pakistan get the technology?

Was it Clinton? No. Was it Jimmy Carter? No. Was it during the Reagan Administration? Yes."

Then reconcile that with the Pressler Amendment.  Please explain.

Your reasoning regarding Paks relationship with the Taliban is not complete.  The major impetus for the relationship was Paks senior military leadership wanting strategic depth with regard to India because of their on again/off again hostilities.  The rest is cover.  This goes back to their serious numerical disadvantage.  You should also keep in mind that the military holds incredible influence behind the scenes and is not shy about stepping in to get what it wants and Musharraf is only the latest incarnation of that power.  I strongly recommend reading about Pak during the '70s and '80s as well as the influence of the senior general staff.

 

"And I don't accept the premise India has the bomb so Pakistan needs it too. Also, India has never been a threat to the US." 

Whether you accept it or not you'll be in disagreement with Paks senior generals and reality.  Remember the historical conflict between the two.  Who said India was a threat?

"If you don't fear an unstable nuclear Pakistan, you are either very ignorant of world affairs, Pakistani, or both."

Uh, I did say we need to support democratic elements in Pak.

mjerryfuerst's picture

I'm disposed to side with the anonymous poster on this one.    His post first made a very useful point.    I didn't perceive any personal insult in his subsequent use of ignorant.    It reflected his belief that one more knowledgable about Pakistan or world affairs would reach a different conclusion.       The word ignorant, often misused by the ignorant as a synomym for stupid, can unfortunately sometimes convey an unintended insult.   If he had instead written "You would fear a nuclear Pakistan if you had more knowledge of world affairs and/or Pakistan," you probably would not have flagged it, although it says the same thing without the ignoble i-word ignorant.

This is reminiscent of a flak from several years ago about the use of the word niggardly:  http://multiracial.com/site/content/view/189/40/

 

Michael Fuerst             

 

If he had instead written "You would fear a nuclear Pakistan if you had more knowledge of world affairs and/or Pakistan," you probably would not have flagged it, although it says the same thing without the ignoble i-word ignorant.

Yeah, but that would have been a more polite way to make the point.

IlliniPundit's picture

"Yeah, but that would have been a more polite way to make the point."

Yes - and I require more politeness from unregistered users. 

The easiest way to get around that requirement is to register - it's easy, free and still anonymous.

Try to see the bright side - at least we don't have to hear any more about the wife-killing cop in bolingbrook for awhile.

Oil Man's picture

In reviewing the actions by the Bush Administration over the past almost eight years, there has been almost complete support of the current President of Pakistan, Musharraf , former military commander.  Yes, for the sake of free elections, our administration did support Bhutto's return for the election.  However, with GWB's statements after her death suggests he wants the elections to proceed as scheduled.  Of course if they were to occur at that time, Musharraf, with a strong opponent is no longer available almost assures his victory-----and as before, the Bush Administration's continued support.

Glock21's picture

 purplelady (not verified) said: "All the talking heads are saying the assassination could have a dramatic effect on the US primaries. They seem to think that Huckabee and Obama are now toast, and that it will help Guiliani and Clinton. Just wondering what you all think about that."

 

 

It might... in spite of the fact that Hillary's foreign policy experience is mainly hand shaking and hosting dinner parties, and Giuliani's foreign policy experience is non-existant... but he likes to pretend that his 9/11 experiences qualify him for something more than an advisory position in FEMA.

 

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Glock21 Op/Ed

Quite frankly I believe that the most important "foreign policy ingredient" that any candidate can have is the ability to surround himself with good advisors. The second most important ingredient is the ability to manage a difficult situation without making it worse. In otherwards "foreign policy" is never political, it is national. On this note you can bet that Hillary would have the same pill bombing foreign policy that Bill had. He completely destroyed the intelligence service. Obama has hitched his wagon to the isolationist crowd that believes we can ignore people intent on harming you. He might be right, but then again, why would we need an army if that were true. McCain has a very shoot from the lip type philosopy. I reviewed his comments on Fox News after the assasination. He stated who he did not think would be a good candidate from the field that was left. This is interference of the worst order. I cannot imagine anyone trying to tell another country what to do. This was the stupidest comment I ever heard anyone make after an event like this. Guiliani might be able to get some wind in his sails from this. Huckabee immediately talked about how they did not protect her enough. Yea, well you have to keep your head down after they almost get you and not stand up and waive.  I think Thompson and Romney both sounded presidential on this, but check out the comments yourself.

Glock21's picture

 John, I'd agree that's one of the most important aspects.  I'd wager that a smart guy with no foreign policy experience might have fairly good odds at picking decent advisors.  Someone who's been dealing with foreign policy issues for years and years with a strong general knowledge on the various international issues affecting our interests would have the best odds of picking the best advisors as well as making the best decisions on the information available.  Depending on the issues of the day, the first guy may be enough, and it seems that most people find that to be the case today.  I'm in the minority.

 

I'm not sure how you took McCain's comments on the players remaining in Pakistani politics as interference, meddling, or the stupidest comment ever while other candidates were stating how they'd demand elections to continue or that they might be impossible, for Mushy to step down, for Mushy to push for this/that/the other, along with pointing out the relative weakness of Sharif or any other major player of Pakistani politics to fill the void Bhutto leaves behind.  Perhaps you could explain?  Still waiting on a response on the "close to toast" thread unless you're done discussing those issues.

 

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Glock21 Op/Ed

D. Boon's picture

Not to claim anyone is ignorant, but for a perspective on the killing that comes from people who know the situation a bit better than those of us on the Illinois prairie I would suggest reading Tariq Ali's take in the Guardian:

... It is difficult to imagine any good coming out of this tragedy, but there is one possibility. Pakistan desperately needs a political party that can speak for the social needs of a bulk of the people. The People's party founded by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was built by the activists of the only popular mass movement the country has known: students, peasants and workers who fought for three months in 1968-69 to topple the country's first military dictator. They saw it as their party, and that feeling persists in some parts of the country to this day, despite everything.

Benazir's horrific death should give her colleagues pause for reflection. To be dependent on a person or a family may be necessary at certain times, but it is a structural weakness, not a strength for a political organisation. The People's party needs to be refounded as a modern and democratic organisation, open to honest debate and discussion, defending social and human rights, uniting the many disparate groups and individuals in Pakistan desperate for any halfway decent alternative, and coming forward with concrete proposals to stabilise occupied and war-torn Afghanistan. This can and should be done. The Bhutto family should not be asked for any more sacrifices.

Or Robert Fisk's take in the Independent:

... George Bush announced on Thursday he was "looking forward" to talking to his old friend Musharraf. Of course, they would talk about Benazir. They certainly would not talk about the fact that Musharraf continues to protect his old acquaintance – a certain Mr Khan – who supplied all Pakistan's nuclear secrets to Libya and Iran. No, let's not bring that bit of the "axis of evil" into this.

So, of course, we were asked to concentrate once more on all those " extremists" and "terrorists", not on the logic of questioning which many Pakistanis were feeling their way through in the aftermath of Benazir's assassination.

Ugh.  Why didn't we finish the job on the Afghan/Pakistani border again?