The News-Gazette today reported that you can now get energy credits in Illinois.
Illinoisans who buy solar panels, wind generators or other types of renewable energy equipment can now get a little more bang for their buck.
Gov. Rod Blagojevich recently signed legislation creating a statewide net-metering program, which means customers can use excess power they generate through such equipment as a credit against electricity they buy from their utility company. In a year when electricity rates jumped significantly, that could make a big difference in a customer's bill.
Ameren apparently didn't offer this before, but says they're not opposed to it. It'll be interesting to see how many people make the conversion. If I didn't have a huge big shady tree on the east side of my house, thereby limiting that side's exposure to sunlight, it would be a lot more attractive to me. Maybe if I put them on top of the garage?
Promoted to the front page, rather than me doing a new post about it.
Thanks, Arvid.
You could get rotating solar panels that follow the sun during the course of the day and put them on a post out in your yard (doesn't have to be on the roof). MIDSTATE RENEWABLE ENERGY SERVICES http://www.midstatepower.com/ in Champaign has these, but they are expensive. Base investment is around $10,000. Don't know what the payback would be, but assuming your avg. monthly electric bill is $100, and your surpluse electricity gets sold back on the grid at retail price (rather than wholesale under this new law) I'd say your payback period is at least 6-7 years or so.
It's about time, just two or three decades behind most states. This just shows the stranglehold that utilities have had on the political process in Illinois. Is it any wonder that the promised rate relief, as well as the promises of deregulation, have been almost entirely negative for consumers?
Still, I'll take a little sip of good news. Maybe it will help all the crap go down easier.
There has always been a rate credit available to those who choose to generate their own power. It took a special meter that you had to pay for, but you did get credit for any excess generation you did not use from your generator and that went back over the lines. I knew farmers who used PTO generators to generate feeding equipment power (when gas or diesel was cheap).
Incidentally, if any of you have generators that you use when the lights go out and do not have the wiring in place to prevent that from going back into the delivery lines. The pull your master switch when you plug in that generator to your system. Otherwise you will subject the line workers to unexpected electricity from a source of which they are not aware. Not pleasant and could be dangerous.
The best way is to have an electricial wire your house to prevent that back feed.
To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield
Rex,
You're wrong... sort of. You're talking about the PURPA law of '78. All that did was force the utilities to pay the 'avoided cost' rate to anyone who put electricity back into the grid. This avoided cost rate is typically 1/4 to 1/3 of what Ameren charges you to buy it from them. So for every kW that you were putting back into the grid, Ameren is paying you pennies on the dollar for it. And when you need it back from them, they're charging you full price. Not a very smart financial arrangement, but the power companies liked it. Net Metering levels the playing field. Read the law for yourself, it's very exciting
http://12.43.67.2/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=095-0420
I could talk about this all day. There are a couple of new companies in the works that will revolutionize how we produce electricity if they can get off the ground. I'll save that for a follow up post.
Oh well, while I'm still here...
To anon 2:10. You're talking about solar trackers. It's not the Photovoltaic (PV) panels that move, but the mount that they are sitting on. I have no experience with them, just from what I've read. However I have talked to some people who claim they don't hold up well in high wind enviroments (which makes sense, I guess).
As for the payback, probably the best website around for that is www.findsolar.com Use their "my solar estimator" button to get some good numbers (although they haven't updated Illinois for the new Net Metering law yet. This will help with payback).
I couldn't be happier this is *finally* in place. As is so often the case, Illinois lags far behind other states on things like these.
What are the options for residential wind power? Can we stick a tower in our backyard? I'd love to have one.
I also recently read about a company that (in 2008) will basically lend you the solar panel equipment and maintain it themselves. The catch? You have to pay them for the power it generates. So why would you bother? Because you don't have to maintain it, and the KWH price you pay is locked in at today's rates---and you can have a contract that runs as long a 25 years. While today's power rates seem way high, I bet they'll seem low in 20 years. Not sure I'm interested in this, but it's neat to see people coming up with alternative ideas.
OK, I'm a bit confused about this.
What happens if I consistently generate more power than I use. Does Ameren pay me cash? Can I use that credit towards my gas bill? Or am I just screwed, cuz I only get credit back? Or can I sell those credits?
That calculator page (given that it has not been updated yet for time of payback for this new law in Illinois) says I could power my house on 400sq ft of cells. I could easily fit 600 sq ft (800 or more if I use the North side of my house and angle them South) Should I do that and assume I'm gonna get money back? Or would I be wiser to only install slightly less than I use so I can be sure to use all my "credits"?
And maybe that is yet to be known, but if anyone knows (or knows a link to said information), I am curious.
NOTE to Debbie Auble or Ms Sandafur (sp?..sorry)... How does one know if this increases the property value? And is that calculator right, that if it does, it doesn't raise your property tax?
Thanks, this does sound awesome, but getting money from the power company sounds a little too good to be true ( maybe I am just reading too much into it) Selling the credits sounds good too, but is that in there?
Confused,
You stole my thunder. That's one of the two companies I was going to write about. You can check it out at http://renu.citizenre.com/
If it works, It'll be big. There's a lot of hurdles they'll have to get over first (like the fact that they haven't even built their factory yet), but if it gets going it'll be big.
PropertyRights,
If you generate more power than you use, you get a month to month credit. The law actually says 'billing cycle' instead of month, but that's how I interpret it. And then at the end of the year, you'll lose any leftover credits and start fresh again. Some states pay you back, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen here. That's okay though, cause this is still huge. So the smart thing to do would be to size your system just so it'll cover you, maybe come up a little short.
Read the law, I put it in my 9:38 post. I think what you're asking about is toward the middle to end.
As far as your property taxes, there's already an Illinois law that prohibits alternative energy systems from raising your property taxes. I'll find the link later, but I gotta get to work....Don't worry, it is good and it is true.
"NOTE to Debbie Auble or Ms Sandafur (sp?..sorry)... How does one know if this increases the property value? And is that calculator right, that if it does, it doesn't raise your property tax?"
Laura doesn't usually post from work, which is where she's at right now. I can tell you that anything that increases your property value will increase your property tax, unless it is specifically exempted by law. Which brings us to:
"As far as your property taxes, there's already an Illinois law that prohibits alternative energy systems from raising your property taxes. I'll find the link later, but I gotta get to work....Don't worry, it is good and it is true."
I would have to defer to Laura on that. That's great news, if true, but the devil (as always) may be in the details. Off the top of my head as a layman, I'm wondering how well one could consistently measure the portion of value attributable to an alternative energy system.
Ken,
Ancillary systems are rarely considered in property tax assements. For instance, I just did a property survey for a client that was putting up nearly $250,000 in fencing on a property for livestock control
Property value increase - $0
Even appraisors ignore such improvements. All that garden and walk and edging you put in your yard, with the trees....Property value increase - $0.
If it is a structure, it might increase your value slightly, but if it is a structure with lots of bells and whistles inside it, like augers, feeding equipment, etc. it will still increase only slightly.
To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield
Ok, here's what I was talking about. I got the info from a great website called the Database for State Incentives for Renewables and Efficiency (DSIRE). Check it out for yourself...
http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=IL01F&state=IL&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1
Just on lunch break so gotta go.....
From the second statute cited at the site listed above: "When a claim for alternate valuation is filed, the chief county assessment officer shall ascertain the value of the improvements as if equipped with a conventional heating or cooling system and the value of the improvements as equipped with the solar energy system. So long as the solar energy system is used in total or part as the means of utilizing solar energy improvements, the alternate valuation computed as the lesser of the two values ascertained under this paragraph shall be applied."
That's all very well and good, but as Rex and I both alluded to above, how significant is the difference really going to be? How much does an alternative energy system really change the valuation of a property? Is there any consistent yardstick for determining that difference in valuation? These are questions I don't feel qualified to answer, but which have piqued my curiosity, nonetheless.
There is a section of the Illinois Property Tax Code that specifically addresses Solar Energy Systems. I had to look it up to be sure of the contents, and I’ll tell you that it isn’t something we see with any regularity. Anyhow, there is a provision for a special assessment for solar energy arrays, as well as wind turbines:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=003502000HArt%2E+10+Div%2E+1&ActID=596&ChapAct=35%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B200%2F&ChapterID=8&ChapterName=REVENUE&SectionID=8903&SeqStart=26900&SeqEnd=27600&ActName=Property+Tax+Code%2E
On a practical level, I know they do calculate taxing values on those wind farms, and I know there is a methodology available to do it. I assume (oh man, is THAT dangerous!) that solar energy also has a prescribed method of valuation, but I sure couldn’t tell you what that is off the top of my head. I have seen some solar arrays out in the County when we’ve been out viewing, but to be honest I don’t remember ever dealing with the assessment of a property serviced by solar or wind power source.
Usually if we get presented with something out of the ordinary we either research it in the tax code or else we contact the Illinois Dept of Revenue for guidance. I will be happy to research a bit if the assessment of alternative energy sources is something you all want to know more about. Just let me know!
Regards!
Laura
Curious,
No wind tower in your yard if you live within the Limits of Champaign or Urbana. Height Limitations per zoning.
But, if you remember I suggested you think about some solutions for the proposed water rate increase......
Put on your thinking cap.....many of the wells are outside of town or in proper zoning.
Any solution suggestions come to mind?
To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield
What are the options for residential wind power? Can we stick a tower in our backyard? I'd love to have one.
Here's what the State of Illinois requires in order to be eligible for incentives.
To qualify for the grant, small wind systems must have a nameplate capacity ranging from 1 to 50 kW mounted on a tower of at least 60 feet in height. Eligible systems must be sited on a parcel of land of 1 acre or greater and be mounted at least 30 feet above any structures or natural features within 300 feet of the installation that may adversely impact the wind resource. Additionally, the applicant must demonstrate that the project location is suitable for wind generation by providing documentation such as wind resource maps, airport or weather station data, and typographical maps.
It's more detailed than PV because harnessing wind power is inherently harder to do. It's not as simple as finding a sunny spot. Wind constantly changes from one place to the next due to a number of different variables. I believe this is the first year that Illinois has offered incentives and rebates for wind power. I could be wrong on that, but it hasn't been nearly as long as they have for PV. I know that some of the people in charge were concerned about anybody just plopping a wind turbine in their yard, even if it wasn't properly sited and didn't produce hardly any electricity.
Rex,
Nothing off of the top of my head. Are you asking a question or suggesting a solution?
"But, if you remember I suggested you think about some solutions for the proposed water rate increase......
Put on your thinking cap.....many of the wells are outside of town or in proper zoning.
Any solution suggestions come to mind?"
I'm guessing you're suggesting I dig a well? This did occur to me, actually. Would/could there be a law to keep me from digging on my own property (as long as it's not within a utility easement)? Is Urbana itself on top of the mahomet aquifer? I can't recall. If so, I could just get my own water from it. Heck, I could even follow RWE's lead and sell it to people who don't live over the aquifer.
OK to me it looks like a couple things suck, but maybe I am mistaken. I'll await more comments.
You can only get electricity credit, no Natural Gas(NG) credit...
The up-front cost of the photovoltaic system(PV) leaves me paying more for electricity than I am currently paying Ameren. But one assumes electric rates will go up, so the savings come further out. I based my assumptions on a $100/mo power bill, and the calculator said I'd be paying $157/mo if I amortized that PV instalation at %6.5 over 30 years (5 years longer than the "life" of the system.)
The efficiency of PV goes down over time. At what rate, I don't know? Anybody? Does the curve look like a bell, a straight line, or an assymtote(sp?) Does this make sense to anyone else (I understand statistics to some degree, but I have forgotten the correct graph jargon, and I don't know how to make the pictures here )
I don't know what "annualized" means? Does it mean Jan-Jan? or June-June? or a sweeping time table where power credits I get in June must be used by next June, July to July and so forth.
........................
So for the first few years while my system is new, I get the most power I can get...great..but if I buy too much system and make too much, I'll lose those credits in January? What if I produce a lot in July, and I want those credits for next June (when I use the most electricity, I heat with gas) or just in February, and what happens in the coming years?
So in the first years when I make the most power, at a higher rate, I lose accumulated credits. And in the waning years of the system I get a better return on rate but produce less power and end up still buying power and have lost my credits....am I saving money?
I guess, these are questions for the professionals.. But It'd seem to be better if I could produce too much up front and apply the credits to the "back-end" or take them with me if I sell the property, or sell them to the new owner at the old fixed rate. Or sell them to others as I got them.. AND WHY THE HELL NOT? The big corporations trade cabon credits, why shouldn't we? So don't give me cash, just give me a voucher I can give my parents, or my college student children, and make them have an expiration date of one year, whatever..
I guess I can't figure out what the balance is..assuming that I'm not just OK with being even.. I want to save/make money on this deal. I mean I'd prefer to get "clean" power and all, I just don't quite see the overall savings.. And let's say I'm OK with spending a bit more for clean energy... but this seems to be trying to sell me savings..and I'm not sure that's true.
That and what does it cost to dispose of the old PV system at the end of it's life...I have no idea, but are there hazmat considerations?? I truely don't know, I'm just asking.
That leased system isn't looking so bad.... but I dunno..? It sorta sounds like current hybrid cars: good for the environment, but no net savings. This is looking like a feel good measure with no real pay back... Again if I am wrong please educate me..
I am NOT a power company shill, lest someone accuse me of that... Just looking for HONEST answers...
EDIT/ ADDITION
It seems to me, and again if I am wrong please corresct me, but OF COURSE the power company has no problem with this!
To get max use of this, I'd have to convert to electric heat and electric water heater. so as to use my summer credits through the winter. And as the system ages I'll be even more dependent on the electricity provider...
But again what is "annualized" mean? Does it mean I lose all credits January 1st? How often can I add to my PV system and still get the state rebate?
It seems that if I want to get best use of this, I should pay it out of pocket and NOT ammortize it, cuz how many of us can guarantee a %6.5 rate? And who knows it you'll be in that house long enough to get a return. If you ammortize it and it doesn't raise the sale price, you're screwed if you sell within like 10 years. And what rate of return could I have on that money in the mean time if I invested it?
As I think more about it, it seems like the best rate of return(if you have gas heat, and gas water heat) is to build up to, but NOT more than, %100 of your winter electricity use.
But I still say: If you can't give away/sell/ save up your credits, this is merely a "Feel good" law, that really benefits the "house/Utility company" in the long run.
I am BEGGING for someone to show/explain to me that I am wrong!!
This isn't a partisan challenge. I am TRULY curious!!
Well, I guess I'm not gonna get e response.. Thanks for the post Arvid!! Really! It's been very thought provoking... The MAN wins again though! F***ing Blago and his "sleeping" with the enemy!
Property Rights,
Sorry, I've been meaning to try to answer some of your questions about this, but I haven't had the time. I started once, but didn't finish. Your post is awfully long, so I'll try to just hit some of the high points....
Yes, this is only for electricity. As of yet, no one has devised a way for us regular joes to produce excess natural gas at our homes. And feeding natural gas back into the system would probably require bending some laws of physics, etc...This 'net metering' is simply a way to be fairly compensated for what we give to them, it's not a trading system in the sense that you can give them one commodity and they'll give you back a different commodity.
'Annualized' will probably be defined when the "Commission" sets the standard in the next four months.
PV panels do degrade, but very slightly. The degradation would look like a straight line. For example, a typical warranty on a solar panel is that it will provide 80% of the rated power output for 20 to 25 years. This means that the company guarantees that a 100 watt solar panel will produce at least 80 watts of power for 20 or 25 years after you buy the panel from them. Let me put it this way. Of all the issues that people who use PV have to deal with, degredation isn't usually at (or near) the top of the list. Some of the first PV panels that were made are still putting out power (50 or 60 years later).
PV panels are expensive. There's no getting around it. Payback will take a long time. But as I've heard some people say when peppered with "what's the payback" question, "I dunno, what's the payback on your swimming pool?" Using PV is not as easy as hooking up to the grid, but it's a lot more than that to most people. My battery is gonna die, more to come later if you'd like to keep discussing...
Until one reads the details of the contract required at http://renu.citizenre.com/, which is not posted at the site, one cannot bhe sure if it is a prudent arrangement for the consumer. The web site suggests that the contract involves placing a mortgage on the residence where the solar equipment is installed, which complicate subsequent sale of the house. I also wonder whether the company will remain in business for 25 years and whether the technology used will be become outdated in 8 to 15 years.
Michael Fuerst
Anon 10:49.. and Michael Feurst,
Thank you for your responses...
I understand the not allowing us to apply credits to NG(although I understand that some utilities do), but I still think the utilites could allow us to give our credits to whomever we choose, that would seem to be the spirit of the law. (not cash, just a voucher, or coupons... THAT would cause a serious push to lower carbon signatures)
And if I can't get my money back in savings, then the power utility is still getting the last laugh..
I don't really understand your swimming pool analogy.This isn't an amenity, it's a utility. It's not as if I'm a PV enthusiast who builds this stuff as a hobby, I'd expect it to payback. But if it still produces %80 of new in 20 years, that's not as bad as I envisioned.
Anon 10:49, do you know how often you can add to the system and get the State rebate, or is that a on-time thing?
What are the top complaints of PV users?
Thanks again
Sorry MFuerst,
I didn't exactly respond to what you said.. I see what you are saying: If I lease the system, I pass a possible debt/ financial responsibility onto the next buyer, I see that too.. good point, not exactly a prize if it isn't a savings...Or a savings that's easy to see/realize...
Anon 10:49:
If you take on the PV as a pure way to lower your carbon signature, cost be damned, I admire your willingness to do so!!....
I am not so willing.. I want to see a savings... if that makes me a pig, well I am sorry... and I don't mean to put words in your mouth... I just want to see savings.... AND be conservationally responsible.. who wouldn't.?
That and again, (not mad at you Anon 10:49, but to the Governor and any elec. utility) what's so wrong with the idea of letting us generate electricity in a "green way" and passing those credits around? Seems like a good birthday/Christmas gift to my kids/nieces/nephews/ siblings/ fixed income elderly...etc.. IF I AM PRODUCING IT.
Why not incent folks with the space to do so, to overproduce solar energy and pass around the credits? What's the crime? Same as if I were growing more squash than I can eat,..... pass it around, are the grocers gonna go out of business?
Are "they" afraid we might not need them (elec.utilities)? That seems unlikely... at least in the near future anyway..
As I see it, this law encourages folks to put too much into solar, and not get their investment out, unless they use more electrcity...which looks to me like a way to make us MORE dependent on the electric utility company in the future!!! And that makes me feel like a "sucker" if, in fact, I am right, but I may not be.. please educate me if you think I am wrong!
But as I eluded to before, I wouldn't buy a hybrid vehicle until they show an actual savings,( which currently, as I understand, they don't) 1) because I don't have that much disposible income and 2) because if I, or someone else, wrecks my vehicle, I am not gonna get carbon credits from an insurance company ( OK that last point might be a wee bit off mark for what we're talking about) But if a tree falls ( or some other "act of God") detroys my PV system while it's a few years old, say more than 5 years, with depreciation, I think I am screwed.. Can I get the state rebate again if I rebuild it?
Don't get me wrong, I want to do this...IF it's a solid investment... but is it? That's all I am asking...
A solar powered heat pump would be awesome! Along with a super-insulated house, BUT WILL THAT PAY OFF in time to make them reasonable to an, oh let's say 10-15 year (into the future) property holder....ok I think you get what I'm saying... I don't mean to rant..
I look forward to your/anyone else's response... and appreciate your earlier response. And I understand, if you don't have ALL the answers to my questions.... Just putting them out there.
EDIT:
OK I wrote another long post....Hard to answer...
Nutshell
Can I do this with a 5-10 year payback? Or will it take 10-20? or more? Or do I spend a bit more and feel better for not burning fossil fuels for my power? (admirable, but not cost efficient)
Would better insulation save more than this ( OK that question depends on a LOT of things. Granted)
Will it increase my property taxes?
Will it increase the value of my property?
All of which denatures down to...is there monetary savings... or "just" carbon savings?
OR, Is it just a "feel good" measure to make the Governor look good, and make us more dependent on the electric utilities in the future?
Can I do this with a 5-10 year payback? Or will it take 10-20? or more? Or do I spend a bit more and feel better for not burning fossil fuels for my power? (admirable, but not cost efficient)
Well, this is tricky....The easy answer is probably not in 5 years, more likely around 10. Some of the variables include: How big of a system are you putting up? Are you going to install batteries in the system or not (if so, price goes way up and the whole reason for net metering in the first place goes way down)? How much of the installation work can you do yourself? How much electricity do you use every month? How much solar access do you have at your place (shading is a killer for PV)? Etc...Etc...Etc...
PV panels are expensive, although there are a lot of breakthroughs on the horizon. One of them that I find most promising is a company called Nanosolar. Google it, check out their website. I have no affiliation whatsoever, but I would like to get my hands on some of their stock if they ever go pubilc. The basic idea is that they 'print' solar panels using a spray, like a newspaper line. It's totally revolutionary and if it works, it'll be cheaper by far to do this than to get power from the electric grid. However, that day isn't here yet, so you're probably looking at at least 10 years before payback.
Would better insulation save more than this ( OK that question depends on a LOT of things. Granted)
Hmmm, I don't think this is a good comparison. However, 'better' (or simply more) insulation is a very good thing. More insulation goes hand in hand with PV. They all work together. All of the experts say that before going to renewable energy sources, by and far the best thing to do is to simply use less energy to begin with. The quote I see a lot is something along the lines of 'every $1 put into efficiency is worth $3 worth of PV" The basic reasoning behind this is that producing energy by PV is much more expensive than simply not using the energy in the first place. In fact, this is true for electricity purchased from the power company as well. The packages on compact flourescent light bulbs don't lie when they say that each bulb will save you about $20 over the ife of the bulb. This is because they are much more efficient. I would love to get into a discussion with you about simple steps that everyone can do to lower their power bills. Most of them require little, if any, major changes in lifestyle.
It's funny that you bring up insulation. I'm going to go insulate the box sill in my basement as soon as I get done with this post.
Will it increase my property taxes?
My belief is no, it will not....Maybe someone with more knowledge on tax law can answer this.
decide for yourself http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=IL01F&state=IL&CurrentPageID=1&RE=1&EE=1
Will it increase the value of my property?
Yes, but only if the person buying the house knows what they're getting. It's all relative. Personally, I would pay much more for a house with a PV array than a house with granite countertops in the kitchen. Don't just take my word on it though, research for yourself
here's an interesting example http://www.angelfire.com/stars/dhsphysics/solarmodule.html
All of which denatures down to...is there monetary savings... or "just" carbon savings?
Short answer: Both. However, monetary savings take much longer to realize...Don't forget that electricity is never going to go down in price, only up.
OR, Is it just a "feel good" measure to make the Governor look good, and make us more dependent on the electric utilities in the future?
No, net metering is a very good thing. It's not a ploy by the power companies. It will make you less dependant on the utilities. However, the only way you can realize how good it really is if you make use of the law by producing your own electricity.