Priorities in Education

A piece by Victor Davis Hanson today at NRO about education - one quote I particularly like:

We should first scrap the popular therapeutic curriculum that in the scarce hours of the school day crams in sermons on race, class, gender, drugs, sex, self-esteem, or environmentalism. These are well-intentioned efforts to make a kinder and gentler generation more sensitive to our nation’s supposed past and present sins. But they only squeeze out far more important subjects.

He also discusses teacher qualifications and tenure.  I know, I know, basic right-wing stuff, but I just like to see it in print every now and again.

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As a teacher who doesn't partake in these sermons and is generally opposed to them, I wonder if Hanson has much clue about what is going on in many of our nation's classrooms and outside of them. Service learning projects give students a chance to expose themselves to different community actions and customize those actions to their own growing set of individual  values.

One wonders if you and Hanson are opposed to sermons or simply opposed to students being exposed to different values at all, and allowed to make their own choices.

Would you at least agree that the lead is one of the best examples of terrible education in existence? If we talk to each for 15 minutes and see that we are some of  the smartest persons alive, does that mean that our schools are the best we have ever been? Surely before you thought to link this article you considered the hazards of anecdotal evidence?

Our kids today know more skills than ever in history. The skill selection might be poor, but that's something to consider as a society. How many of us could use a cell phone or text message or web browse or IM or email, or use a word processor or design web pages twenty years ago? I'm not being snarky, but have you considered the content and skills that the kids DO know and the comparative importance?

I also find it amazing that he would vilify schools for having multiple valedictorians in the same paragraph as he complains about low achievement. I have yet to meet a low achieving valedictorian. Or is he claiming that having two valedictorians somehow contributes to kids failing to graduate?

I do agree with this section:

The old approach to education saw things differently than we do. Education (“to lead out” or “to bring up”) was not defined as being “sensitive” to, or “correct” on, particular issues. It was instead the rational ability to make sense of the chaotic present through the abstract wisdom of the past.

Except that the "old approach" was more concerned with being "correct" on many issues, and he is right that in some cases misguided educators have replaced old dogma with new dogma. But as usual, Hanson's tone implies that he wants to replace the new dogma with old dogma.

To encourage our best minds to become teachers, we should also change the qualifications for becoming one. Students should be able to pursue careers in teaching either by getting a standard teaching credential or by substituting a master’s degree in an academic subject. That way we will eventually end up with more instructors with real academic knowledge rather than prepped with theories about how to teach.

This is great. I would have benefitted greatly from this, as I had already ample teaching experience overseas and didn't really want to take the time to finish a teaching certificate. But is he really foolish enough to suggest that the main element needed in a classroom is "real academic knowledge". I would submit that "real academic knowledge" is not in the top five of component required to make an accomplished teacher than leads children to strong academic performance.

But if you don't believe me, take your master's degree and start subbing at a low income school (like most of the public schools in the country).

And once hired, K-12 teachers should accept that tenure has outlived its usefulness. Near-guaranteed lifelong employment has become an archaic institution that shields educators from answerability. And tenure has not ensured ideological diversity and independence. Nearly the exact opposite — a herd mentality — presides within many school faculties. Periodic and renewable contracts — with requirements, goals and incentives — would far better ensure teacher credibility and accountability.

And this helps with "encourag(ing) our best minds to become teachers" how? Sure, I agree that greater accountability is necessary, but one of the few reasons why our best minds are encouraged to become teachers is the fact that one won't have to worry about losing one's job and unable to feed one's kids in an abrupt fashion and can instead focus on teaching someone else's.

I mean, sure, there are some teachers who see teaching as an easy way out. There are those of us too with multiple higher degrees and the opportunity to be lawyers or business leaders or doctors who think we better serve the society as a teacher. But would we still do it without the security? Probably not.

Why not attract people with more respect for the teaching profession rather than attacking it like folks seem to enjoy so much. Personally, I think it's insecurity at seeing someone else doing something meaning with their life.

Athletics, counseling and social activism may be desirable in schools. But they are not crucial. Our pay scales should reflect that reality. Our top classroom teachers should earn as much as — if not more than — administrators, bureaucrats, coaches, and advisers.

Ah, another salient point wrapped in an idiotic package. Sure, administrators and bureaucrats are overpaid. But has he ever been to a school to argue that counseling is "not crucial"? When kids are killing outside the school, is a good counseling team optional?

Liberal education of the type my farming grandfather got was the reason why the United States grew wealthy, free, and stable. But without it, the nation of his great-grandchildren will become poor, docile, and insecure.

Projection?

Finally, I would wonder if you would join Hanson in calling some of the historical events taught in school  "supposed wrongs".
Which are those? Slavery? Chinese Exclusion? The Trail of Tears?

I'm not saying that there aren't classrooms somewhere that are filled with anti-American sermons of biased portrayals of historical events. But this vague lashing out at any sort of teaching plays into the hands of historical revisionists.

Surely we should be invoking excerpts of Columbus' diary and letting students judge for themselves.

Anyway, my final question that I hope I can get a decent answer for is "Why are you happy to see this in print?"

There is much room for improvement in the school system. I just spent three days of my vacation working on developing curriculum to improve basic skills through choice community involvement (measuring lake samples, drawing community maps, etc.). Why should I applaud the NRO boys' "I just rolled out of bed and slapped together a poorly researched work" column?

If you want to see a lack of logical skills and writing ability, look no further. They are welcome to hire me as a free lance tutor anytime (I have plenty of upper class references as well :P). But they should lay off the by-lines until they receive that training.

Hansen is a joke.  He has been since "Ripples of Battle" - one of the most poorly written and argued texts I've ever come across.  This article is an excellent example of why he is a failure as an academic - he simply makes stuff up and hopes his audience is too ignorant to figure out how full of crap he is.  RSW - there are good, balanced articles that are analyzing what is right and what needs fixing in our schools.  I'd humbly suggest finding some of them and working from that foundation.

I like the post RSW, and I liked the article.

What a surprise that Xian would find instant fault. "I work there and know it best - you don't so your opinion doesn't count." That logic if applied to political discourse would pretty much nulify this site.

You don't need to have a M.E. to know that our schools are failing, the NEA does more harm than good, and that we have a very serious crisis in our public school system. I'd like to believe Xian and others like you are truly commited and do indeed positively affect your students. But please don't disregard the real and enormous flaws with the education system.

 

Hanson's anecdote about literacy is ridiculous - there's not a literacy problem if a minimum-wage clerk in a store cannot explain a legal document written by and for lawyers. Plus, his whole notion of an increasingly illiterate population is completely off-base. How can media corporations get so powerful if the public can't read their message? Why has the internet, a (nearly) text-only medium, become so popular - especially with younger generations? I'm curious how many of the clerks and customers at his electronics store have to "make their mark" instead of signing their names on credit card receipts.

70% graduation rate? Sure, that statistic looks bad - but the proportion of Americans with secondary and post-secondary education is at an all-time high, and continues to increase. Oh, and I find plenty of other sources (including the credible Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics) that put the number far closer to 90%.

Greene's method (the one cited by Hanson) for calculating these statistics is pretty bad - he compares the number of 1998 graduates to the number of 1993 8th graders. While this is a seemingly simple, accurate test, it relies too heavily on enrollment numbers - a statistic that school districts have plenty of incentive to inflate.

When you see people graduating from our education system unable to read, write, or perform the most basic of math calculations,  (or who do so at very low levels), you have to wonder what is going on in the education system and what we can do to turn out more students who are at least minimally qualified to work in today's economy.

That's not what I said at all. I found instant fault because it is a poorly supported article. I don't like Charter Schools, but I've read selections by charter school organizers that I deeply respect.

But it's not surprising the response I get. I've long seen evidence that many people have no interest in learning enough about schools or experiencing them so that they can actually help kids through reform.

I'm not saying you can't have good ideas without experience, but theorizing from a distance when there is no reason for that distance is a telltale sign of insincerity.

You are right, you can observe the problem without an M.E. and I hope you will. But to argue that it is elitism to want to you actually connect your arguments to school realities is lunacy.

When have I ever disregarded the real flaws in education? I have an easier time believing that those of us who sacrifice our safety and being treated in a dignified manner for the betterment of our pupils at truly committed than those who snipe at us from a distance.

I can't comment on your expertise, Anonymous, because I don't know your experience and you haven't presented any arguments (which is a bad sign unto itself). But Hanson clearly doesn't what he is talking about.

When I see someone peeing on the sidewalk while wearing a business suit, I don't assume that all businessmen are irresponsible community destructos.

I love the way that people are replicating Hanson's poor argumentative style in defending him. Perhaps he's not the only one who would benefit from a Dangerfield-eque return to an institution of learning.

You don't need to have a M.E. to know that our schools are failing, the NEA does more harm than good, and that we have a very serious crisis in our public school system.

Ok, how do you know that? Because more Americans than ever have at least a secondary level of education? Because the literacy rates and levels of primary and secondary students has stayed the same or increased over the past few decades? I'd like to know how you arrive at this "obvious truth" about the education system.

The only problems I see with the public school system involve inadequate and grossly inequitable distribution of funds.

When you see people graduating from our education system unable to read, write, or perform the most basic of math calculations, (or who do so at very low levels), you have to wonder what is going on in the education system and what we can do to turn out more students who are at least minimally qualified to work in today's economy.

Where do you see this?

This article just reads like a great deal of projection to me. For example, "...in the scarce hours of the school day crams in sermons on race, class, gender, drugs, sex, self-esteem, or environmentalism." Is this really happening, or is this just the perception of public schools held by the right wing? Perhaps one of the teachers that reads the blog could let us know whether they actually have "sermons" on race, class, and gender? I'm 15 years out of high school and I don't remember having a 10am self-esteem class. I had math, or maybe it was English.

Basically, his sole evidence for the failure of the school systems due to spending all their time on "social activism" is three anecdotes from his personal life. Two of these involved people in fairly menial jobs. It never seems to occur to him that maybe these people had trouble with basic skills because the left the school system and dropped out.

To encourage our best minds to become teachers, we should also change the qualifications for becoming one. Students should be able to pursue careers in teaching either by getting a standard teaching credential or by substituting a master’s degree in an academic subject.

Why a master's degree and not, say a bachelor's degree? Anyone with a BS in chemistry could run rings around high-school level chemistry, let alone 5th grade science. I don't see the additional benefit of one or two more years of research. The fundamental problem with his suggestion is that he seems to assume someone with a expertiese in a subject immediately makes them a good educator on the subject. The primary purpose of a teacher is to teach, not to be an expert. If anything, I figure training in education is more important than advanced-level degrees in the field. I'm an expert in my field, but put me in a room of high-school students, and I wouldn't have a clue where to begin.

"The only problems I see with the public school system involve inadequate and grossly inequitable distribution of funds."

Are you referencing the fact that public schools spend more per pupil than other countries and get worse results? Or that public schools spend more per pupil than private schools and get vastly worse results??  Or is that some hint at a request for teachers to be paid more? The $9200/student we spend here is a very hefty sum.

Arguements, stats, blah blah.  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml

Your ivory-tower babble is falling on deaf ears. The only people that want to argue this point (that our schools are in trouble) are the teachers  who should be held accountable.  Everyone else can see the issues clearly.

And my qualification to have this discussion: the fact that I pay your salary through my property tax. Yes, I get a seat at the table, too, like it or not.

 

Back in this "golden-era" of the United States (1940-1970 or whatever dates you want to use), how many 16-25 year olds were innovating the way people transact, changing the media, or changing the way people get information? You're right, I guess that the education system is a complete failure.

Are you referencing the fact that public schools spend more per pupil than other countries and get worse results? Or that public schools spend more per pupil than private schools and get vastly worse results?? Or is that some hint at a request for teachers to be paid more? The $9200/student we spend here is a very hefty sum.

No, I'm referencing the fact that the money that actually goes towards education, and not bureaucratic nonsense, is inadequate.

Arguements, stats, blah blah. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml

So, other countries are improving their education faster than we are. We're still increasing the number of graduates, just not as quickly as other countries - that doesn't sound like much of a crisis to me.

Your ivory-tower babble is falling on deaf ears. The only people that want to argue this point (that our schools are in trouble) are the teachers who should be held accountable. Everyone else can see the issues clearly.
And my qualification to have this discussion: the fact that I pay your salary through my property tax. Yes, I get a seat at the table, too, like it or not.

I'm not a teacher at all. I'm glad to see that your golden-era education taught you sound logical reasoning, though.

As long as we don't have a reasonable set of standards for what students should be learning, at least in basic subjects, and as long as we do not have a method of measuring student progress within those standards, we have no real way to tell how individual schools are performing.

The absence of standards and measurement, given the importance of the subject and the immense resources poured into education, is a scandal.  The resistance to setting standards and measuring student progress is even more scandalous.

 

Endless discussion with no action, including my comment, is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

"We're still increasing the number of graduates" Sure by lowering the bar... that piece of paper doesn't mean squat if the student doesn't have the basic skills to be successful in life. And by success, I don't mean: can thumb out text messages at 60 words/min or surf the net quickly, or shop on Ebay with ultra ease.

John Bambenek's picture

I'm sitting here in my office on the engineering quad on campus surrounded by grad students.  An overwhelming majority aren't American.  Now I don't have a problem with foreign grad students; I do find it telling that American educated students simply aren't able to compete for admission to our grad schools by and large.  We built them, we pay for them, and we can't get our own students into them.  I think that says something.  About the only graduate program teeming with Americans is law school because petty bitching mixed with get-rich-quickism is one of the things we still do excel at.

Everyone realizes there are problems in education... everyone.  I was at a conference on education a few weeks ago, and every speaker was a pro-public schools kind of person.  And they all agreed things had to be done.  We raise a nation of kids who can't be trusted with an automobile so we have to pass laws taking or limiting those privileges because they can't be trusted.  But kids a generation ago could be.  A generation before that kids would bring rifles to school to go hunting after school.

Sure, it's not terrible, but that's because we haven't felt the true impact of our educational short-comings yet.  Give it a decade or so when those are our leaders.

That's great, people can send text messages, that's hardly a convincing argument about what's going right in schools.  What's next?  Are schools going to give out awards for being the best griefer in World of Warcraft too?

--
j
Part-Time Pundit

I support teachers, but I am stunned sometimes by the lack of expertise in academic subjects. When I was in college, a friend stunned me when he told me if he took either one or two foreign language classes (can't recall which) beyond the then-required 4, as an English education major he was qualified to teach that language. Talk about being one page ahead of the students.

As, he could take one journalism class and teach high school journalism. Yeah, one class pretty much makes you an expert

Just to keep the fire going here: As I watched on the news the smug Mahomet teachers leave the school last night at the 11th hour before school starts, the announcer said :"the teachers received a 5% pay increase for the next three years after long negotiation."  Wow, is that a sweet deal or what? In my job, I get reviewed each year based on my performance... and MAYBE get 3-4%. I like my job. I'm good at it. But I doubt my boss is willing to give me guaranteed raises three years out.

And for teachers who are supposed to be in it for the kids, I fail to see how that fits with jeapordizing the start of school on time over a contract negotiation that could have been handled during the THREE MONTHS THEY HAVE OFF. 

 

I do find it telling that American educated students simply aren't able to compete for admission to our grad schools by and large.

 

I don't think it's that student's aren't able to compete so much as they aren't interested in competing in the sciences. There aren't a lot of jobs that require a science PhD and those that do (i.e. academic research) often pay worse than industry jobs requiring a BS.

That being said, the understanding of basic science by Americans is, on average, horrifyingly poor. I can't help but wonder if part of the reason is that pseudoscience flourishes in our society: creationism/intelligent design, homeopathy, astrology, etc. Or maybe it's the ignorance that is driving the pseudoscience. Chicken, meet egg.

Loren Heal's picture

Narc, you're exaggerating somewhat  A PhD helps earning power, so even though a job doesn't require it, that's not the reason people don't pick them up.  They take a lot of qualification for acceptance, they take a lot of sacrifice, and a lot of people are in debt from, or simply addicted to, a lifestyle which precludes that sacrifice.

Me, I'm just married with children.  How do I tell them we're getting rid of the dog and moving into Orchard Downs?

But I can't tell where your chicken and egg are, unless you mean to question whether belief in astrology leads to poor science skills?  Because I've met scientifically adept people who were just sure that wearing a crystal around their necks would deliver them great spiritual power when they needed it.

--

See the Academy, where we start at pretension and never look back.

Arvid's picture

Just to keep the fire going here: As I watched on the news the smug Mahomet teachers leave the school last night at the 11th hour before school starts, the announcer said :"the teachers received a 5% pay increase for the next three years after long negotiation."  Wow, is that a sweet deal or what? In my job, I get reviewed each year based on my performance... and MAYBE get 3-4%. I like my job. I'm good at it. But I doubt my boss is willing to give me guaranteed raises three years out.

Maybe you need to find a job that a better compensation package, because while I'm no longer teaching, I now have a job that I've seen an average 5-8% raise each year.  It looks like the free market approach to compensation has left you in much worse shape than me, but hey, I'm not complaining :)

I'd love to see any of you work regular, consistent 9-11 hour days (2-3 preparing and modifying lesson plans to reach the students, 5-6 hours teaching those students when a good chunk of them have no interest in what you're trying to teach, and another 2-3 hours doing reporting, parent contacts, grading, more reporting, faculty meetings, more grading, etc. ) for an average starting salary of $31,847/year (bachelors) or $35,511/year (masters) (go ahead and take the numbers into Excel and average them yourself if you don't believe me).  And this is in the Chicago Suburbs....imagine how much less a district like Mahomet, St. Joe, etc. pays....my friends who have made the jump from Champaign-Urbana schools to the surrounding small towns said it was between a $2000 to $6000 pay cut.  Not many people would be willing to take that kind of a cut just to stay in the field that they love.

And let's not forget that on top of all this work, teachers are REQUIRED to complete a certain number of hours of continuing education and professional development, mostly on their own and out of pocket, in order to keep their certificates and their jobs.  Tenure does give job security, but it's not 100% do-what-you-want and screw the consequences.  If a teacher fails contract-mandated remediation, exhibits gross negligence/disobedience, or even fails to keep up with professional development and their certification will find themselves on the unemployment line, regardless of tenure.

So yes, a raise like this (most of which will find its way either back into the classroom as supplies or into higher ed classrooms as continued education) is certainly appropriate and deserving.

And for teachers who are supposed to be in it for the kids, I fail to see how that fits with jeapordizing the start of school on time over a contract negotiation that could have been handled during the THREE MONTHS THEY HAVE OFF.

This is the kind of ignorance of how labor disputes get resolved that drives me nuts.  This contract had been in negotiation for almost a year, it's not like they waited until the last one expired in June to sort this out.   I also love how those who don't work in education are quick to get on teachers as not really working because they have the summers off. What they don't realize is that most teachers do work a 12-month year....they just do it in a 9-month school year.  Some would say that's far more efficient than most workers :)

A couple of points.  First, America has some of the best public schools in the world.  I would easily compare high schools like Stevenson or New Trier with anything any other country in the world is doing.  Those kids are flat out smart and their schools are examples to the rest of the world.

Second, America has some of the worst public schools in the world.  South Side High School in the CPS used to look like something out of a bad movie.  The troubles in places like the Bronx and LA are well known.  Less well known is the trouble facing rural districts, some of which keep consolidating to avoid expenses, making longer commute times and a bigger incentives for young white men to drop out.  We have problems in this country, for sure.

Solutions?  Anyone?  Surely we can't begin to believe the there are more "self-esteem" classes in the rural white districts of, say, Iowa (who tend to score poorly on the exams) as we do in elite, liberal towns like Oak Park or Evanston (where the scores tend to be much higher).  I think we can all agree that Victor David Hanson has little idea about what he is talking about there.  So, what are the solutions?  Vouchers will hardly solve the problem for the rural white kids, who probably don't have ANY other options than their consolidated school districts.  Ditto for super-poor inner city minorities who will quickly be priced out of the best schools in a "free market" approach to schooling.  Other solutions?

One thing to keep in mind: America asks its schools to do more than any other country would ever dare.  From feeding poor students to diagnosing medical disorders to assisting severely handicapped students in the bathroom, America's schools are the place where many families meet and ask stuff of their government.  Without an active government support system, like almost every other country who is "kicking our butts" has, the job of government support falls to the schools.

Finally, Mr. Bambenek would be wise to keep in mind that he is rubbing elbows with the elite of the elite from the countries represented on his campus.  If he is working with Indians, then it is safe to say that there are close to one billion other Indians who didn't make the cut.  He'd be smart to ask these students how much outside tutoring they had in their home country if they went to public school (which is unlikely).  To compare school systems on the antecdotal evidence that there are a bunch of foreign students on campus reminds me of the justification for the War in Iraq.  We don't need to look at any real evidence, we just "know in our gut" what the truth is.  I think we all know where this kind of thinking has led us in the past.

 

"one of the few reasons why our best minds are encouraged to become teachers is the fact that one won't have to worry about losing one's job and unable to feed one's kids in an abrupt fashion and can instead focus on teaching someone else's."

- So its OK for other people to "worry about losing one's job and unable to feed one's kids in an abrupt fashion" because their job isn't as important as yours? Wow, I can't decide of that's elitist, egotistical, or both.

"There are those of us too with multiple higher degrees and the opportunity to be lawyers or business leaders or doctors who think we better serve the society as a teacher. But would we still do it without the security? Probably not."

- Your requirement of "security" (i.e. guaranteed lifetime employment) says a lot about your dedication to the profession and the confidence of your own abilities. And you thought Hansen was the insecure one!

Maybe you need to find a job that a better compensation package, because while I'm no longer teaching, I now have a job that I've seen an average 5-8% raise each year.  It looks like the free market approach to compensation has left you in much worse shape than me

I work in the non-profit sector, making roughly 70% of what I could in the private sector. Don't lecture on servitude... I fully understand making sacrifices for doing something you are passionate about.

I'd love to see any of you work regular, consistent 9-11 hour days.....

You forgot to cue the violin music. Please spare us the "oh, teachers work so hard and are so unappreciated" routine. Get in line - everyone is working hard these days and thinks they ought to be paid more.

What they don't realize is that most teachers do work a 12-month year....they just do it in a 9-month school year.

Is that some teacher joke? Like, how do you fit 2 gallons of water into a 1 gallon jug?? Most teachers I know either have a second job from June to August or they sit by the pool.

 

Arvid,

You have a job that gives 5-8% yearly pay increases AND you only work 8 hours a day? Who is your employer and are they hiring?

Arvid's picture

You have a job that gives 5-8% yearly pay increases AND you only work 8 hours a day? Who is your employer and are they hiring?

I doubt the gravy train will keep rolling with this kind of intensity forever, but for right now, it's pretty sweet.  I do only work 8 hours a day, too bad it's usually 6 days a week :)

Thank you for your interest, but unfortunately we're not hiring at the moment.  I appreciate wish you the best of luck in your future endeavours, and will keep your application on file.

Arvid's picture

I work in the non-profit sector, making roughly 70% of what I could in the private sector. Don't lecture on servitude... I fully understand making sacrifices for doing something you are passionate about.

I'm not lecturing on servitude, I'm pointing out that you have a less generous compensation package than I do, and apparently a less generous one than most non-profit sector jobs I've seen/had, too.  That must be a lot of passion :)

You forgot to cue the violin music. Please spare us the "oh, teachers work so hard and are so unappreciated" routine. Get in line - everyone is working hard these days and thinks they ought to be paid more.

Most do work hard, and most are underappreciated, and they deserve to be paid more just as much as anybody else who works hard and is underappreciated.  So what's wrong with them being able to make a better case for a raise to their bosses than you?

Is that some teacher joke? Like, how do you fit 2 gallons of water into a 1 gallon jug?? Most teachers I know either have a second job from June to August or they sit by the pool.

Since you're having a hard time with this concept, why don't you consider that most of June, all of July, and most of August that teachers have off while you're working to be comp-time for all those weekends and evenings that they spent grading, taking more classes, communicating with parents to help their child succeed, and/or filling out mountains of reporting paperwork while you were off doing a second job, chilling by the pool, going to movies, etc.

Well VDH is imo kind of a sad figure, and this is a pretty sad essay. VHD walks around town and supposedly runs into a bunch of living cliches: some guy who can't count change, a couple having a public discussion about calculating the cost per pound of a piece of meat, and some guy who tries and fails to explain some unspecified element of a warranty.

Lucky for Hanson he happened to run into (or, more probably, was willing to make-up) such a bunch of tedious cliches, because they provide a serviceable if shop-worn lead in for a standard rant about education that redstatewannabe rightly observes we've all seen before. 

Of course, right-wing think-tanks aren't famous for demanding much in the way or research or measuring performance when deciding which partisan hacks to keep around, so Hansen will do alright writing this kind of stuff.  I love the irony here too of the fact that Hanson did his undergrad at UC Santa Cruz, a laid back "experimental" school that didn't even hand out grades back when Hanson headed off to college back in the day.

Anyway, VDH does toss some worthwhile points into this stewpot of an essay.  Getting to these... :

It is, alas, true that we could we could use some sharper education majors.  It can be painful trying to glean knowledge from a person who's interest in the subject they teach is minimal, and secondary to their interest in coaching or just "working with kids."  Some of those ed classes, also, are like weed-out classes for smart people.  On the other hand, since most students are on the average side, there's certainly an argument for making sure that teachers are skilled at dealing with students who are many times less than ferociously motivated.

Hanson's broadeder argument is rather nebulous, of course, but part of it rings especially true: The US has been slashing funding to gifted programs.  Hanson is a bit vague about this, as undoubtedly his current paymasters would prefer him to stick to the usual teacher-bashing boilerplate.   But it's actually not been PC Elites that have been the promoters of mediocrity, but the anti-intellectual Bush administration, especially through the "No Child Left Behind" policy that has had a pretty devastating effect on the educated "elites" and eggheads that Karl Rove had such success blaming for all the nation’s problems. 

According to (LINK) this Time Magazine article, Illinois alone has cut $16 million from its gifted education budget, in efforts to raise the scores of lower-achieving students.  I'd agree with Hanson that it's not necessary to provide post-graduate or even college degree for everyone in the US.  But we need to do better by those students who *do* have academic inclinations, rather than dumping them into classes where they spend the whole year drearily prepping for a standardized test.

The corollary, of course, is that those who don't want to get four year degrees should be able to get decent livable jobs, as well as health insurance, so that they don't end up "left behind" economically, as they increasingly are today, under the Bush economy.

 

akibare's picture

Anonymous 4:27 says: "Vouchers will hardly solve the problem for the rural white kids, who probably don't have ANY other options than their consolidated school districts. "

 

We're seeing a similar issue locally right now - PBL schools have failed at "No Child Left Behind," and so they're required to give the students the option of attending another school. But  hey, turns out Hoopeston doesn't want them going over there.

 

Cities too, have this problem, because usually the school district lines are set up to split the suburbs off from the center city. So, schools from the city might let their students move among the various schools, but heaven forbid anyone want to extend that to allow the city kids to go to the suburban schools - every time, the screaming is heard 4 states away. 

Narc, you're exaggerating somewhat  A PhD helps earning power, so even though a job doesn't require it, that's not the reason people don't pick them up.  They take a lot of qualification for acceptance, they take a lot of sacrifice, and a lot of people are in debt from, or simply addicted to, a lifestyle which precludes that sacrifice.

I'm not denying that a PhD will hurt your salary prospects, just that most jobs in industry don't really need them. A PhD (in the sciences) usually shows that you are able to do, and have done, original research. That's just not really required at a lot of places.

But Mr. Bambenek's point was that Americans are unable to qualify for grad school because of poor education, and so we need to import a bunch of foreigners instead.

But I can't tell where your chicken and egg are, unless you mean to question whether belief in astrology leads to poor science skills?  Because I've met scientifically adept people who were just sure that wearing a crystal around their necks would deliver them great spiritual power when they needed it.

That's funny, I've only ever known two people who gave any credit to the whole crystals-thing, and they were very much not the sciency types. I guess this is why the plural of anecdote is not data. Maybe it's not even a cause-and-effect relationship, maybe it just sets up a whole feedback loop. Poor understanding of science makes people susceptible to pseudoscience, which confuses them about real science, and so forth.

 

As long as we don't have a reasonable set of standards for what students should be learning, at least in basic subjects, and as long as we do not have a method of measuring student progress within those standards, we have no real way to tell how individual schools are performing.

The absence of standards and measurement, given the importance of the subject and the immense resources poured into education, is a scandal.  The resistance to setting standards and measuring student progress is even more scandalous.

We have way too many standards. I have no problem at all aligning my lesson plans with standards, but until they are better organized and put together by people who have a good conception of what the classroom environment is like, I don't think it'll make much sense to use the standards to create lesson plans. It'd be nice to see them work curriculum mapping into the mix too.

We are tested as well, and evaluate on those results. The testing scheme is ridiculous and fails to account for progress rather than knowledge. Sure, the "yearly progress" provision considers improvement, but schools still find themselves on a watch list pretty quickly if their scores are low to start out with.

The evaluation scheme is either disingenuous or was put together by someone with no understanding of what tests are for or what they evaluate.

Given that it was a Kennedy-Bush adminstration joint venture, I don't find that surprising.

Anyway, the point is, I don't disagree that the standards and testing is insufficient, but I fail to see how this is the fault of teachers. It's the fault of people who don't understand education, and can't be bothered to learn about it running the bureaucracy.

You see, this is my point--it's not that people who aren't teachers shouldn't talk about education. Quite the opposite--I agree that as a vital public service we should be directly answering to the general public.

But why do people fail to understand that this is a professional occupation. I sometimes question my doctor, but not with a bunch of fallacies I picked up on NRO.

Otherwise, you're just that crazy guy who thinks that because he "has a right to speak", he must destroy any constructive discussion with disjointed gibberish.

 

"one of the few reasons why our best minds are encouraged to become teachers is the fact that one won't have to worry about losing one's job and unable to feed one's kids in an abrupt fashion and can instead focus on teaching someone else's."

- So its OK for other people to "worry about losing one's job and unable to feed one's kids in an abrupt fashion" because their job isn't as important as yours? Wow, I can't decide of that's elitist, egotistical, or both.

"There are those of us too with multiple higher degrees and the opportunity to be lawyers or business leaders or doctors who think we better serve the society as a teacher. But would we still do it without the security? Probably not."

- Your requirement of "security" (i.e. guaranteed lifetime employment) says a lot about your dedication to the profession and the confidence of your own abilities. And you thought Hansen was the insecure one!

Wow, you're quite hostile. Didn't your momma raise you right?

No, I believe in job security for all people, I was just stating that job security helps recruitment. In between personally insulting me, do you disagree?

I agree entirely that quality of instruction is a critical part of improving the educational system. But I'm quite sure that very few of you haters would be interested in taking my job, so I'm just saying that if your retension is in the 50% range even after just 3-4 years, and you are talking about a profession with a steep curve in terms of learning the job, it would seem to behoove you to do a good job attracting people.

My requirement of security has nothing to do with my award-winning teaching abilities. It also has nothing to do with the leadership abilities I've demonstrated in mentoring other teachers, even early in my career. What it has everything to do with is that those with expertise in the field are aware that stability is an important component FOR THE STUDENTS.

If you have a better way to ensure that students don't end having to suffer 5-7 teachers for the third grade and the educational obstacles that come with having constant teacher turnover, I'd love to help you implement them.

But if you want to know another reason why there is difficulty retaining teachers, look no further than yourself. Unlike those other systems that people are referencing--one of which I was a decorated instructor in--the level of respect for teaching as a profession is very low.

It isn't surprising that it is hard to attract the best people to a profession that is high stress, high stakes, and receives very little respect. And yes, it's partly your fault.

 

"Didn't your momma raise you right?"

- My "mamma" taught me that a person has to earn the privilege to keep their job through hard work. Not through entitlement. You obviously disagree.

"I was just stating that job security helps recruitment. In between personally insulting me, do you disagree?"

- Employment entitlement (which you incorrectly call "security") DOES help recruitment ...of the wrong people.

"My requirement of security has nothing to do with my award-winning teaching abilities."

- I hope the award wasn't given by the same Chicago school system that admitted to rampant inflation their teacher evaluations. If not, then congrats.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/489389,CST-NWS-teach30.article

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-teacheval30jul30,1,6403312.story

"If you have a better way to ensure that students don't end having to suffer 5-7 teachers for the third grade and the educational obstacles that come with having constant teacher turnover, I'd love to help you implement them."

- Limit tenure to one school year. To retain teachers, give the teachers that have better results and abilities the higher pay as opposed to basing it on seniority.

"It isn't surprising that it is hard to attract the best people to a profession that is high stress, high stakes, and receives very little respect."

- Respect used to be something that had to be earned. If you don't have to earn your employment, how can you expect to be respected for it?

If you don't have to earn your employment, how can you expect to be respected for it?

Just to clarify a couple of points.  Teacher evaluation instruments are usually constructed at the local, school board level.  Some districts have instruments that are much tougher than others, for sure.  But each district is responsible for negotiating with the union a fair evaluation procedure.

In Urbana the instrument changed a couple of years ago and has become quite serious.  There are literally hundreds of different expectations for teachers, broken into five or six larger, general areas.  If a teacher is found (by administrators, who are NOT part of the union) to be insufficient in any ONE of the general areas then they are placed on a plan in which the administrators work more closely with them for a year.  If the teacher does not improve (again, the administrators make that call) then that person can be fired.

This arrangement was designed by both the union (our local branch of the NEA - I believe the supported Judy Myers in the last election) and the school board.  For new, untenured teachers, there is nothing required of the administrators if they wan to fire, or RIF, them.  They simply place their name on the RIF list and that is that.

I am not sure what the procedures are at private firms in the area, but teachers are a part of a union.  You might not like that, but the teacher's unions are some of the strongest in the country and their goal is to protect their workers.  It seems perfectly fair to me that a person who has worked in a district for five years (the length of time it takes to gain tenure) or more should not be eligible to be fired at the drop of a hat if an administrator decides they don't like that person (it happens ALL the time in private schools).  This is called worker's rights and the world would be a better place if more of you had them.

But just because you don't, that doesn't give you an excuse to start claiming that teachers do not deserve their employment. 

My "mamma" taught me that a person has to earn the privilege to keep their job through hard work. Not through entitlement. You obviously disagree.

My momma taught me that if you are ignorant of the work others do and then call then entitled for wanting to be treated with respect, it speaks poorly to your definition of respect.

 

I've also found people who soundbite actual problem solvers words and edit out the content (say the cross-cultural comparisons to the Japanese education system) are probably more interested in winning the argument than actually solving the problem.

Your concrete "solutions" I've seen in your posts are:

1. Cut tenure to one year. I said this would hurt retention and recruitment. You said that it would help prevent in-year teacher turn-over. That makes zero sense.

2. Don't give teachers any respect. I said that you need to understand teachers' situations and evaluate them fairly so that you are capable of giving them the respect that they in many cases deserve. I also think you can't understand the difference between respecting the necessity of a profession as a whole and holding individual members accountable.  This helps recruit quality teachers, HOW?

My point is that you'll whine and insult and disparage teachers without knowing what we are doing as individuals, and then won't lift a finger to do anything to improve the system. I'm open and happy to hear your ideas, but when it's clear you are not interested in growing your understanding of the educational system before making all sorts of ridiculous demands, then I question your motives.

In my book, you are the same as the legislators who are happy to attack teachers, but have no vision for a successful educational system. In the end, you hurt kids and you enjoy it. And then you go eat a sandwich and forget about it.

But hey, everyone deserves a second chance--why don't you take an hour and outline what you think it is that a high school teacher does. Please tailor your response to a school environment that is representative of the experience of the significant portion of students in the country. Some hints: You will look foolish if you don't have some plan for neighborhood violence, gang involvement, parental neglect, etc. Don't forget your actual subject and curricula as well as your plans for professional development.

It may take some time, but I'll tell you if you get the job ;) because since you are so happy to drive away the existing "bad" teachers, you must want to fill that gap right.

Remember, in order to drive off inadequate workers, you actually have to have someone stable and willing to fill the position. I haven't seen that in any of your "plans" to this point.

"that doesn't give you an excuse to start claiming that teachers do not deserve their employment" - Based on your explanation of the Urbana evaluation and tenure system (and assuming that the six general areas are all actually relevant), the teachers there do deserve their employment since it is contingent on their performance, much like any other job. According to you, a bad teacher can be fired after what is basically a probationary year. Kudos to Urbana and the local union! Unfortunately, that system is not typical, especially among the larger districts where termination of a tenured teacher based on job performance almost never happens.

Arvid's picture

ILVoter,

Your lack of knowledge of this subject is astounding.  All teachers can be terminated, regardless of whether or not they have tenure. The only difference between firing a non-tenured and a tenured teacher is that you have to have a good ,well documented case for canning a tenured teacher, taking largely into account their effectiveness in the classroom, what change factors have modified that performance, and what can be done to remediate the situation (IE, making sure you have just cause).  This is opposed to the firing of a non-tenured teacher, which can pretty much be for any arbitrary reason the administration feels like (at-will employment, which does not require just cause).

Tenured is also not something that is automatically granted. If a teacher started out well, but started to slip after their first year and it doesn't appear that they'll improve and grow, tenure will be denied and that teacher is terminated.  It's not simply a case of teachers half-assing their way through the first four years, and then really go to crap as soon as that tenure contract is signed.  This is true in all districts in all places, at least in Illinois.  As I have no teaching experience outside of this state,  I won't speak with authority on areas I'm not personally familiar with.  Perhaps you should consider trying that approach as well.

It might also be helpful to understand the idea of framing in this context.  The argument against public schools that comes from conservatives follows a simple theme.

First, it must be declared that the schools are failing miserably.  This usually involves a study or analysis of international test results that shows the US school system at the middle or back of the pack.  Usually the countries above us have homogenous populations and expansive government support programs, but none of that can ever be mentioned.  The test results must be taken as a whole, with no context allowed.  Also, the excellent American public schools must never be mentioned.  Otherwise the reader or listener might start to think of their own school, which probably isn't that bad, or their own kid's experience in school, which is probably pretty good.  Therefore, the test score negatives (or in Hansen's case the antecdotal run-in with simpletons) must be kept isolated and clear.

Second, the blame for the terrible state of our public schools must be laid at the feet of the liberals.  This can be done in many ways, but the most obvious and most commonly used method is to blame the teacher's union.  Not good to blame teachers.  Conservatives are always careful to NOT blame individual teachers (again, you don't want your reader or listener thinking about their own experience with teachers, which is usually positive).  Blame THE UNION.  That faceless entity that conjures up thoughts of Jimmy Hoffa and Goodfellas.  The union won't let anyone change anything.  The union protects terrible teachers from being fired.  The union eats young children for breakfast, whatever.

Alternate explanations for the failure must always go back to liberals.  It is always effective to blame the sixties mentality on sexual excess or drug use.  Hansen does a nice job in the article by blaming "self-esteem" lessons for all of our failures.  Yes, of course, it is the hippies with their "self-esteem" problems that have ruined our schools.  It is also critically important to mention over-and-over again that funding is not a problem.  Throw out numbers without context, something like "Americans spend more per pupil than any other nation".  That kind of thing.  Again, it is important to NOT mention that many school districts in this country spend far less than other countries, while other districts (the ones doing really well on the tests) spend far more than other countries.  This kind of differentiation just confuses people.  Stick with the message: "Americans spend more per pupil than any other country".

Third, the solution for the liberal's creation of the worst schools ever must be a conservative political point.  Vouchers are always a good way to go.  If only the kids in those terrible schools had some choice about where to go, then they could just leave those bad schools and go to a good school instead.  As simple as that, really.  Just a choice.  This fits nicely into overall conservative ideology: that Americans shouldn't depend on their government to help them, they should take care of themselves (unless you're a Hedge Fund Manager, that is).  This "solution" can then be projected into a bunch of other nifty conservative ideas: forget social security, let's dump those billions into the stock market!  Or maybe: forget universal health insurance, you should be thankful the insurance companies will have you!  That kind of thing.

Thus, you have the conservative framing of the schools debate.  It can be easily picked apart with facts and figures, of course.  But who wants to hear all that stuff?  Better to stick to the message: the schools are a disaster, it is all the liberal's fault, and what the schools need are vouchers or some other thing that only a conservative politician can provide.

Have a great Friday everyone!

"All teachers can be terminated, regardless of whether or not they have tenure."

- An average of two Illinois tenured teachers per year have been fired for poor performance since 1987.

"Tenured is also not something that is automatically granted."

- only 2 percent of teachers up for tenure in Chicago Public Schools last year were denied the job protection

"It's not simply a case of teachers half-assing their way through the first four years, and then really go to crap as soon as that tenure contract is signed."

- 1 out of every 930 evaluations of tenured teachers results in "unsatisfactory" rating and only 50 percent of those teachers actually leave the profession.

- 93 percent of Illinois school districts have never attempted to fire any tenured teacher in the last decade.

"lack of knowledge of this subject is astounding."

- Indeed.

http://qconline.com/archives/qco/display.php?id=279632

 

"Thus, you have the conservative framing of the schools debate.  It can be easily picked apart with facts and figures, of course."

 

Happy Friday!  :)  :)

- How typical of an ideologue to make such a claim, and then not provide any. Oh well, apologists for the status quo rarely do.

- only 2 percent of teachers up for tenure in Chicago Public Schools last year were denied the job protection

It's funny because you've now provided two examples of school systems both of which do not fit your generalizations.

In CPS we have no job protection before the last year before tenure. In the first three years, we can be "clicked off" without cause. After the third year, the teacher may still be "clicked off" as long as the principal provides a reason. The reason why "only two percent" of those up for tenure are denied it is that there is ample opportunity to fire them---with or without cause--at any time.

It's interesting that the website you cited chose to exclude the numbers for the teachers dismissed in this manner from CPS, since it is actually the significant number. It's like saying that "Only two percent of people who were not attended to in the first 72 hours after a life-threatening injury survived" to indict a medical system, when the vast majority of patients were saved because they were treated in that window.

If you look it up, you'll find much different statistics--overwhelmingly high--that describe the percentage of prohabationary period teacher (which is the first 3+ years, much longer than you recommended) fired last year.

So I suppose now you will apologize and being advocating for MORE job security in line with your previously stated recommendations?

Oh, and I'm still waiting for your constructive plan to show all of us that you actually have a goal here except to attack educators who are good at their jobs and hurt children.

 

Arvid's picture

An average of two Illinois tenured teachers per year have been fired for poor performance since 1987.

Interesting, but how many non-tenured teachers per year are fired for poor performance?

only 2 percent of teachers up for tenure in Chicago Public Schools last year were denied the job protection

You're completely ignoring that 4-year "probationary" period where many teachers who can't hack it either quit, RIF'd or outright fired, completely without job protection

1 out of every 930 evaluations of tenured teachers results in "unsatisfactory" rating and only 50 percent of those teachers actually leave the profession.

Maybe this is because the teachers who make it through to tenure are actually worthy of it, and most of these "horrible teachers" you are so quick to despise without spending a single day in their shoes are inexperienced, and if they fail to progress from there they never make it to the tenure stage.

93 percent of Illinois school districts have never attempted to fire any tenured teacher in the last decade.

See above statement.  There's all kinds of remediation and steps that can be taken to give teachers who have fallen into a rut a chance to improve, and most of them do improve.

Your lack of knowledge and attempt to make the statistics work in your favor while ignoring the bigger picture is still astounding.  But that's ok, I'm sure your problems stem from having gotten such a horrible public education...

“So I suppose now you will apologize and being advocating for MORE job security in line with your previously stated recommendations?”

- I didn’t advocate the CPS position, but you can apologize for pretending I did.  Thanks.

 “It's interesting that the website you cited chose to exclude the numbers for the teachers dismissed in this manner from CPS, since it is actually the significant number.”

- Since we’re discussing tenured teachers, how many of those did CPS fire last year?  I noticed you just glossed right over the cited facts that only a fraction of a fraction are ever terminated in Illinois.  Too difficult to explain away, huh?

 “Oh, and I'm still waiting for your constructive plan to show all of us that you actually have a goal here except to attack educators who are good at their jobs and hurt children.”

- The teachers who are good at their jobs are not the problem.  It’s the bad ones that you want to protect with entitlement tenure, which makes you part of the problem.  That DOES hurt children.  Here’s a simple plan: fire the bad teachers.

“Maybe this is because the teachers who make it through to tenure are actually worthy of it, and most of these "horrible teachers" you are so quick to despise without spending a single day in their shoes are inexperienced, and if they fail to progress from there they never make it to the tenure stage.”

- That would be the case if not for the fact that CPS already admitted that their teacher evaluations were grossly inflated.  They probably aren't alone.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/489389,CST-NWS-teach30.article

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-teacheval30jul30,1,6403312.story

"My momma taught me that if you are ignorant of the work others do and then call then entitled for wanting to be treated with respect, it speaks poorly to your definition of respect."

- So you can't criticize government employees and you must give them unquestioned respect and authority, even it they are incompetent?   Would your mother happen to be George W. Bush?

 

“1. Cut tenure to one year. I said this would hurt retention and recruitment. You said that it would help prevent in-year teacher turn-over. That makes zero sense.”

- 1. It WOULD hurt retention and recruitment…of those who are interested in guarnteed employment until retirement, regardless of performance.  You want those people teaching, I don’t.  It’s a disagreement.

- 2. One year tenure means even an incompetent teacher could not be fired during the school year, hence preventing in-year turnover that you are so concerned about.  Pretty simple concept.

 

2. Don't give teachers any respect.”

- I give the good teachers who don’t need tenure as a reason to ensure their employment LOTS of respect.

I give the good teachers who don’t need tenure as a reason to ensure their employment LOTS of respect.

You don't know much about politics if you think good teachers are ensured of employment without tenure. All it would take is one lunatic parent and one cowardly administrator and the best teacher in the world would be out of a job.

1. I'm still waiting for your plan. You managed to insult me again, but still no plan.

2. You aren't providing a credible standard of respect. You can't only respect teachers who agree with you. If someone is doing an amazing job at a tough assignment and happens to disagree with you on tenure, you are nasty to them. That's what I'm attacking. I would imagine that you are the only one who thinks that constitutes wanting "unquestioned respect and authority".

3. You are talking past everyone in the thread. You claim ultimate job security and won't do any of the research to confirm it. 775 teachers were cut in CPS last year. That constitutes 11% of the PAT population. With tenure, the process is much tougher because it seeks to protect a decorated teacher with a long career from a personality conflict with an administrator. You'd be lucky to find a single 30 year teacher who has never had a poor administrator. You seem to think that the vast majority of teachers are terrible, which is possible, but then give adminstrators a completely free pass.

Here's a link citing the Tribune article, which has been taken offline.

4. The statistics you cite are intentionally cooked (not by you, but by the anti-teacher group you cite). Depending on the exact area, 40-60% of new CPS teachers never make it to tenure. That speaks to a lack of support and possibly poor recruitment, right? Show me another professional job with multiple years of graduate level training that 40-60% of new hires are not retained after 4 years. That impacts children when retention is so low. Your tenured retention statistics are not interesting either. It really doesn't matter if poor teachers are "fired" specifically. If I am I bad teacher and walk away next week, that doesn't show up in the fired teacher statistics you are presenting. We are interested in who is in the classroom rather than who is specifically "fired".

That being said, you could argue that "it's the wrong teachers being retained". In other words, the best teachers move on to other things, while the worst teachers become upper-administrators and hang on indefinitely. I'd like to see some research to support that argument about the quality of retained teacher, but even so, that does not indict tenure, only the evaluative abilities of administrators.

 

Conclusion: Sound-biting arguments and attacking them is fun, but I'm still curious if you have any solutions that logically address the problems of the system. It's really hard to have a constructive discussion when it's unclear what your goals are.

 

 

Over 200 Illinois Public School Districts Post
Above Average Pay Increases
 
An ongoing study being conducted by The Champion Foundation has found that full-time public school teachers and administrators in Illinois receive average pay increases and estimated pensions far above those seen by private sector workers.
 
“National compensation surveys continue to show average annual pay increases hovering in the low single digits, yet only occasionally do we see such modest increases in the taxpayer funded public schools,â€Â said John Biver, president of The Champion Foundation. “While the schools cry poor to the Illinois General Assembly, our research shows they pay themselves as if they’re rich.â€Â
 
One example is Bloom Township High School District 206, where the lowest one-year average pay increase for teachers in that district was 7.9% (1999 to 2000) and the highest was 14.8% (2003 to 2004). Administrators’ average increases ranged from as low as 9.5% (2003 to 2004) to as high as 20.8% (2001 to 2002).
 
During the three-year time span from 2001 to 2004, Dolton School District 149 teacher pay increases averaged 34% and administrator pay increases averaged over 62%.
 
Over 200 of the approximately 900 public school districts in Illinois have now been analyzed by the Champion Foundation's “School Accountability Project,â€Â which computes the pay increases of full time staff for one and three year time spans.
 
The findings have remained consistent: average pay increases and estimated pensions for those in the education field are far above those of private sector workers.
 
“These pay increases have nothing to do with performance,â€Â Biver said. These extremely high pay increases are the result of the teacher unions’ monopoly power and the right to strike. Taxpayers are bearing the burden of this excess because basic economic principles are ignored and market forces are kept out.â€Â
 
While school districts continue to push for ever more funding through General Assembly action and property tax referendums, The Champion maintains that better options are available, including:

  • Increasing incentives to efficiency by empowering parents through school choice and increasing the number of charter schools.
  • Full disclosure of all public school expenditures through online searchable databases and all employee contracts so there can be citizen oversight.
  • The creation of a rational pay structure for Illinois public school employees based on state and federal civil service pay structures.

“The state constitution calls for both high quality and efficiency in the public schools, and the citizens of Illinois are being short-changed on both accounts,â€Â Biver said. “The Champion Foundation continues to call for specific reforms that will help accomplish that constitutional mandate. Choice and competition are what our public schools need; not more money that will be spent on excessive pay increases rather than on educating children.â€Â
 
State funding for education in Illinois has doubled in the past 12 years, and Biver believes it is time for innovation rather than increased spending.
 
“These incredibly high salary increases are not justified and taxpayers cannot afford to continue to reward a system that is failing Illinois’ school children.â€Â
 
The Champion School Accountability Project uses only Illinois State Board of Education public school teacher and administrator pay data.
 
# # #

For more information about The Champion School Accountability Project, click here

I posted the above so parents and taxpayers could get a grip on where your money goes....these HUGE property tax increases keep on coming with no accountability and no refund for poor preformance. Let's have vouchers now, and let us spend..: OUR" money were we deem worthy!

Ok, at least that's a plan.

I would like to point out that the highest pay increases in the study went to administrators, not teachers.

I would agree with recommendation #2. #1 has already been done and has done little to improve things--choice is in effect, but without good institutions, it doesn't really help. The charter schools have a dream environment--the ability to cull students with high parental involvement, resource advantages, and little regulation, and on the average have not posted gained to match those idealic conditions.

#3 depends on what you mean by rational. If it's really rational, I'm all for it. If it's "I'm not a teacher, so screw 'em and screw recruitment" then I can't support that.

We are still one of the lower developed systems in terms of percentage funding going to classroom teachers. On the flipside, we have high administratorial expenditures.

I would be strongly in favor of bringing those in line with the international averages, but that has little to do with union power--the administrators are not in our union.

The solution is the family. Kids who do better have stronger families. Education starts at home. If we really want to solve this problem, we need to look somewhere besides the schools- starting with the homes and the parents. Schools simply cannot make up for a wide spread fundamental failing of the family.

It's no doubt that education in America is failing, despite the many dedicated teachers out there. (And my heart goes out to these teachers, who not only have to teach, but now must parent, discipline and police.) Ask any college prof, and they'll tell you students come to college woefully unprepared. I recently watched a PBS documentary about how dumbed down our colleges were becoming.

The schools don't need more money- they waste enough of it already, as it's already been pointed out how much more public schools cost per child compared to private schools. The schools need families, and parents taking responsibility.

Brilliant, Manic monday! All we need to do is force some guys to marry those single moms, we'll have families and we can close the schools!

anon- I think you're mocking me, but I suppose if you run some sort of dating service, that would at least be a solution that would actually focus on the cause.

Well, I know a lot of great parents whose kids are still struggling, but I can't disagree with you in general.

I try my best to provide the best I can for the kids who have insufficient parenting at home. But I don't see how I can be blamed as a teacher for not being able to raise everyone's child for them.

But that's the irony. One of the best ways to help parents provide a stable home for their kids is not to vilify single mothers or do a pants check on every couple to make sure they have the "right" number of penises and vaginas. It is to help parents build security so that the kids can consistently get what they need. I'm not talking about guaranteed lifetime employment. I'm talking about some fortifications against a single bad administrator coming along 15 years into your career and ruining your family's security.

I fail to see how the failure to fire bad teachers is the fault of the union. There is a process in place, and if the principals--who are bogged down with time-wasting obligations--were actually observing classrooms, they could use that process quite easily.

To the person who was asking me where I see all of these poorly performing students, have you been to ______________(insert the store of your choice) and purchased one item that was offered for two for 99 cents?  have you had to tell the cashier how much one item was because they couldn't figure it out in their head and had no calculator next to the register?  Try sitting in court sometime and watch young defendants go through the system.  It's clear that they don't read well, among other things. I'm assuming they're products of the school system we've been talking about.  Oh, and for a really good laugh, try watching one of the late night shows where they take a survey on some general point of knowledge--the results are funny and pathetic at the same time.

To the person who was asking me where I see all of these poorly performing students, have you been to ______________(insert the store of your choice) and purchased one item that was offered for two for 99 cents? have you had to tell the cashier how much one item was because they couldn't figure it out in their head and had no calculator next to the register?

I haven't really experienced that - all of the clerks I deal with seem to have an idea about what's going on. However, I see two other explanations for your experiences (neither of which have to do with education): long shifts in a monotonous job and inconsistent store policies. If a cashier has been doing the same thing for hours on end, seemingly simple tasks (adding, dividing) can be time consuming. For the inconsistent store policies, I'll tell you (from my own experience) that stores are very inconsistent in their "n for x" pricing. Rounding, pricing when a customer doesn't purchase "n" goods, and specific deals will all change how much an item costs. If the cashier is new, working with a strict or uncooperative manager, or unaware of the deal, problems can arise.

Try sitting in court sometime and watch young defendants go through the system. It's clear that they don't read well, among other things. I'm assuming they're products of the school system we've been talking about.

We're going to indict the education system because of the education level of our criminals? Those that are definitively social deviants? That seems a little biased in sampling - like visiting an obstetrics ward and concluding that 100% of American women are currently pregnant.

Oh, and for a really good laugh, try watching one of the late night shows where they take a survey on some general point of knowledge--the results are funny and pathetic at the same time.

Oh, right, the shows where people get to be on national TV only if they come up with dumb, ridiculous answers. That's a damn good test for the public's level of knowledge.

I'll pose this question again - if literacy levels are so dismal in today's youth, why have exclusively text media (i.e., SMS, web browsing, email, blogs) gained so much popularity with that generation?

Is it also really a tragedy that a cashier at a store can't perform mental arithmetic consistently? We invented calculators, cash registers, and POS for a reason - why should employees be able to perform redundant functions? Basic calculators are so prevalent (every cell phone has the feature) that mental arithmetic isn't that important. Now, if the clerk had no way of solving the problem (e.g., didn't know to divide), there's a problem.

I don't think it's a tragedy, but I also don't think that any educational system worth their salt should be graduating people who can't figure out what half of 99 cents is in their head--it's all well and good to say that we have calculators, etc, but if you don't have access to one, then you need to know how to do those things.  All good systems have some redundency built into them to provide coverage for things in the event there is some kind of break-down.

Are you sure the cashier at the Dollar Store and the folks being given ten years for possession of crack are high school graduates?  Data has consistently shown that a high school diploma reduces the chances of ending up in court or in dead-end jobs.  What does THAT say about our schools?

But really, please continue using fabricated antecdotal evidence to support your negative, bitchy claims.

I also don't think that any educational system worth their salt should be graduating people who can't figure out what half of 99 cents is in their head

I'm still not convinced that this is really a problem - I'm sure there are a few graduates out there who might not be able to, but I think they are extremely rare, as I've never encountered any. I already listed two extremely plausible explanations for this "mental math shortcoming" you experienced. Criticizing a system for the failures of an extremely small minority seems to be the real problem with math here...

Face it..any criticism of the so called...EDUCATIONAL PROCESS is bombarded with these  comments from hyper sensitive chicken littles. We all know the system is bad, the results dismal, the property tax out of whack...and yet we keep passing kids who cannot read and write at even minimal grade school levels. Don't worry, the pensions are safe, and 5 years from now, we'll have the same arguments, the same mantra...MORE MONEY FOR EDUCATION! Vouchers now....IT's YOUR MONEY!

Bruno Behrend's picture

Thought Police,

You are a thoroughly well-trained defender of the indefensible, but the weight of anecdotal and scholarly evidence against the public education monopoly is simply too large to be gainsaid.

Even where it works (suburbs?), it does so at too high a price (and unsustainably, to boot)

Some one of your qualifications certainly has a ready answer and a quick response, as I notice all trained defenders of the monopoly quickly point to one aspect or another of this overpriced and overstaffed Rube Goldberg pile of waste that keeps the conversation from ever reaching a solution (unless of course, the solution is more money for the monopoly).

It is for these reasons that I challenge you to a debate (Roberts Rule of Order and all that) in Champaign (or whereever you reside).  We can advertise it on this blog, and YouTube it for all to see.

Lets do one 3-hour debate a week for 4 weeks, and cover:

Week 1 - Curricullum (how science shows that at the early ages Traditional so far outperforms "Progressive" claptrap that anyone who teaches "progressive" should be sued for educational malpractice.)

Week 2 - Funding - If funding should be equalized, then why is the monopoly so opposed to equalizing funding? (Hint: the only way is to tie ALL funding to the student, which would end the obscene practice of end-of-career bumps, unwarranted pensions, and car allowances for Superintendents.)

Week 3 - Corruption (let's pull up the rocks in every district and see what scurries out from underneath) You can fund an educated populace or you can fund a $500 billion money laundering scheme.  You can't do both.

Week 4 - Choice  - There is no intellectually sound argument against 100% fully funded and equalized school choice - assuming, of course, that an educated populace is your goal (as opposed to growing an unecessary pool of payrollees and a bloated adminstrative class to "manage" them).

Name the time and pick your favorite panelists.  Let the people decide.

You are a thoroughly well-trained defender of the indefensible, but the weight of anecdotal and scholarly evidence against the public education monopoly is simply too large to be gainsaid.

If you've read a lot of my other posts (not in this thread), you'd see that I advocate a voucher program. I think it's a far better use of resources - even in this thread, I've mentioned the problems with so much money going to "bureaucratic nonsense" in the current system. I'd love a debate, but I think we have a similar solution - the creation of a voucher program, allowing for market efficiency and choice. It'd be a pretty boring debate. However, your false dilemmas are a little transparent - try rewording some of your more colorful language, and I'm sure you'll find more followers.

I'm merely acting out my name in this thread - people keep baselessly condemning the current level of education, and I'm policing those thoughts. Yes, the education system should be improved - but so many people sit around falsely blowing the problems out of proportion (e.g., "kids cannot read!"), diverting attention from real structural problems (e.g., "teacher's unions and tenure make teachers lazy!"), or just placing blame on individuals that aren't responsible for the problem (i.e., teachers).

So much of this nonsense stems from falsely remembered childhoods, statistics taken out of context, and attribution errors in anecdotes. Should we fix the current system? Of course - but let's not characterize it as some completely backward institution that un-educates the youth and only produces illiterate morons that can't solve 1+1.

Week 1 - Curricullum (how science shows that at the early ages Traditional so far outperforms "Progressive" claptrap that anyone who teaches "progressive" should be sued for educational malpractice.)

Do yourself a favor, ThoughtPolice ... never debate someone who grasp of Curriculum and Instruction theory includes the description of a non-existent dichotomy "traditional" versus "progressive".

This homie has NO idea what he is talking about.

Oh, want me to prove it?  Ask him this: do you think differentiated instruction is a reasonable solution for secondary classrooms or should it be reserved for the primary grades?  Please defend you answer by citing at least two of the leading writers on this topic (hint: one is Tomlinson).

Ha!  Just goes to show the old IP adage is true: the less they know about something, the more willing they are to argue about it.

Ha! Just goes to show the old IP adage is true: the less they know about something, the more willing they are to argue about it.

Oddly enough, I brought this exact observation up in this thread, talking about the Oakland AAVE debate. Again, the strongest opponents of the Oakland teaching initiative had no idea about education methods or the issue at hand.

IlliniPundit's picture

"Ha!  Just goes to show the old IP adage is true: the less they know about something, the more willing they are to argue about it."

I didn't know that was an old IP adage, but I like it enough that maybe I'll incorporate it into a new logo as a site slogan or something.

;-)

Bruno Behrend's picture

Thought Police,

If you are a proponent of school choice, then let me be first to congratulate you and apologize for assuming otherwise (though your comments on this post could easily lead one to believe otherwise).  As for some of your other points, they are open for debate.  Teachers, to the extent they (through their 'unions') use their monopoly power to block choice, are to blame for the substandard education in America (again, compared to the price).  Further, some are lazy, and others are not qualified.  Further again, tenure for K-12 serves no societal purpose, but is (again) a wonderful demonstration of their ability to flex political muscle.

However I have characterized the current system (it DOES, in many cases, "uneducate" youth), the fact remains that the system is , IMO, "unreformable" in its current structure.

Anonymous,

My grasp of curricullum and instrucution theory is quite strong, even if I haven't gone through the indoctrination of "ed school" (Where Tomlinson holds tremendous clout and sway - assuming you are talking about Dr. Carol A. Tomlinson, a 20-year veteran of the classroom who’s now an associate professor at the University of Virginia’s Curry School of Education.)

Just as I might question the Tobacco Co PR person, or the Oil Industry Shill, I reserve the right to question Dr. Tomlinson's motives, agenda, and even her veracity (given my experience with so many in the education field - particularly Superintendents).  She appears to advocate "differentiated instruction."  She is also a proponent of "mixed ability classrooms," and other such "par for the course" ideas that pass for big thinking in our ed schools.

I lack the time to offer a critique of your "differentiated instruction," although it appears to be another one of those brilliant distractions that allows for hours of 'Masters Degrees" class time, as well as great "seminar fodder" for "teacher's institute day." (although I'm sure they are calling it something else now).

One of the reasons I always come back to "choice" is that I have no real problem with "differentiated" whatever, balanced illiteracy, concocted math, or whatever the latest fad pumped out of ed schools might be.

Just tie every dime of funding to the child, let the parents choose from a wide variety of methods, programs, and blends, and let the best methods be discovered.  This makes much more sense than creating 1000s of top-down, centrally managed "districts" and imposing (through massive political clout) the same curricullum on all of them (with the rich getting the choice of remedial products (tutoring, Hooked on Phonics, Kumon, etc.) and the poor getting the $10-12,000/yr/child shaft.

For those reading your snide post and my response, I offer the following.

Background on the so-called "non-existent dichotomy" of "traditional v. progressive" debate.

___

I know it's hard to find the time, Anon, but if I'm as clueless as you would like all the readers to believe, it should be pleasure to take me up on my offer and rip me to shreds in front of an audience.  The fact is you wouldn't, which is why you must resort to attacks and distractions like "differentiated instruction."

Fund Children, not wasteful bureaucracies.

Ha!  "Choice"!  I love it!

Yes, what we need is more CHOICE!  Why didn't all those idiots over at the education school think of that?  Oh, but what's that you say?  What we actually need is DIRECT INSTRUCTION (not, btw, "traditional" instruction, but whatever).  But ... direct instruction doesn't allow for student choice.  Oh!  I am confused.

I'd bet you mean SCHOOL CHOICE!  Like, when kids can choose to go to other schools, and stuff, instead of the one where they are failing their classes (oops, sorry ... it is all the teacher's fault when a kid fails, I forgot ... uh ...) ... where the kids are being failed by their teachers?  Yes, that must be what you mean.

So on the one hand you believe you know how to teach better than the people who spend their lives studying teaching (or you've at least done a couple of google searches and now you think you know something), but on the other hand you have grand ideas about how school districts should be eliminated so "every dollar can go toward the kids".

You seem kind of unaware about things like inclusion, which dictates that certain kids have to be give accomodations in the classroom according to their medically diagnosed conditions.  This not only causes things like "Direct Instruction" to fail miserably in a real, diverse classroom, but it also causes school districts to file reams of paperwork proving compliance with federal and state mandates on a yearly basis.  Since your model of "no school districts" would eliminate the ability for these districts to meet these mandates, meaning thousands of students with disabilities would go unserved, what do you expect to do about these kids?  Should we just assume that they don't have any "real" problems and get back to hitting kids with rulers?  And, if so, who is going to pay for all of the lawsuits that will be filed against the districts for non-compliance (talk about wasting money!)?  Or do we simply wipe out the legislation that has created these mandates?  If so, isn't that a legal and legislative matter best left to the decision makers in Springfield?  Or is state-wide education the problem?  If so, how do you dismantle the state-directed schools?  But hold it, I thought you wanted consistent standards?

Oh, I have a headache.

The reality here is that you have no idea what you are talking about.  The schools are not some cute little building where a hothead can come in and snap his fingers, instituting "CHOICE" into the district.  These are extremely complex legal and legislative entities that are controlled through a democratically elected school board.  To even begin to dismantle the school districts would require a huge effort that you cannot even begin to imagine.  The above paragraph is just one example of all the twists and turns that are involved in discussing something of this magnitude.

So no, I won't waste time away from my family and my yard to educate you about the complexities of the schools in front of other people.  You are better off running for school board and trying to instigate change through the democratic systems that we have in place.  Oh, and btw ... Tomlinson's work is debatable.  That is why you were asked the question.  It is easy to sidestep the question after doing a ten minute google search on (let me guess) "tomlinson differentiated instruction" but that doesn't answer the question.  If you were ever in front of a classroom of high school juniors who are reading at every level from post-graduate to third grade THEN Tomlinson might appeal to you.  But standing outside the school throwing rocks, I guess you're just not interested.

Understandable.

Bruno Behrend's picture

Anon,

Your Rant is a perfect demonstration as to why "your side" is incapable of winning a sustained debate/argument over education.

Once again, you provide a shotgun blast of seemingly unsolvable problems that can (in your opinion) only be solved inside the "Rube Goldberg" bureaucracy you dogmatically defend.  Your attacks on "choice" are woefully weak, given that people are quite well-suited to solve their particular problems once empowered to do so.

Let's have some fun with some of your howlers...

_____

These are extremely complex legal and legislative entities that are controlled through a democratically elected school board.

Of course, I agree that they are "extremely complex."  I'm one of the few critics of the monopoly that sees that the complexity is intentional, wasteful, and completely unnecessary.  As for control, the school board has next to none.   Their ability to drive hard bargains with rapacious teacher's unions is curtailed by statute.  Boards are more often than not dictated to by Superintendents, who lobby aggressively (along with unions) to keep and expand a net of increasingly unnecessary mandates, many of which confict with each other.  This does absolutely no good for the student, but it does wonders for growing payroll, bureaucracy, and spending.

"Democratically elected" provides an interesting issue.  On paper, this is certainly true, but given that many board races are ignored by the electorate, it is easy to recruit and elect rubberstamps who "do what they are told" by a revolving cadre of Superintendents. (which incidentally, the board has no control to circumvent, as the school code - -bought and paid for by the unions, IASB & IASS - prevents any board from hiring anyone outside the monopoly.)

I meet regularly with reform minded School Board Members who have done the hard work of getting elected so that "they can have an impact."  I have also talked to numerous former board members who served (as reformers) in various districts.  They are ignored, stone-walled, ridiculed, and generally left to 4 years of 6-1 or 5-2 votes, where the monopoly shills rubberstamp the Admistration.  Most leave in frustration.

Local control in Illinois is mostly a myth, and nearly every one who has experience with the system pretty much knows it.

In all of your snide caterwauling, you never address the issue as to why we need this complexity or what purpose it serves.  You can't.  It serves only the wasteful and greedy bureaucracy.

___

You seem kind of unaware about things like inclusion, which dictates that certain kids have to be give accomodations in the classroom according to their medically diagnosed conditions. 

I'm quite aware of these wasteful mandates.  If a parent/child wants to be included, a free and open market will provide for such benefits.  "Mainstreaming" is a debate in and of itself.  The narrow interests of a few, combined with the drive to pad payroll, creates a situation where regular kids are left in a class where their learning is impacted by all manners of distractions.

This goes right to the heart of the "differentiated instruction" canard you posted earlier.  First, get rid of ability grouping (exposing the ideological bias of the monopoly).  Second, impose draconian behavioral standards (PC) on the "normal" child while creating incentives to classify as many as possible as "disabled." (nice political manuevering, BTW) Third,  get rid of any meaningful learning standards.  Fourth, put all the kids into one room and demand that the only way to manage the mess is to impose "differentiated instruction" - which is nothing more than a euphemism for capitulating to the "lowest common denominator" while demanding more funds for the continuing failure to educate the populace.

I didn't need 10 minutes to process Tomlinson's theories. (though your description of the Google search is quite accurate)  Once you've read about "Project Follow Through" and the superiority of direct instruction, the stuff coming out of 'ed schools' is pretty easy to address.

___

If you were ever in front of a classroom of high school juniors who are reading at every level from post-graduate to third grade THEN Tomlinson might appeal to you.

First, I've already rejected the notion that we must have children from every level in the same room.  It is bad policy based upon what I consider bad ideology (forced equalization).  While there are good arguments to be made for integration of people and ideas, crushing education down to the lowest common denominator serves no useful purpose.  Implicit in your argument is the belief that children who can process and learn faster need to be held back. This goes not only against common sense, but the rights of the faster learner - whose education is sacrificed on the alter of your (or is it Tomlinson's?) ideology.

Second,  I have offered many like you the opportunity to take you up on your offer.  Find me the worst classroom of Juniors in the state and give me the Salary of the lowest full-time payrollee in that school.  I'll drop what I'm doing and even pay your stinking union dues out of it.  I'll impose upon myself standards that your union masters refuse to allow.  I'll hold back every dime of that salary unless I produce a well educated class at the end of that year. (metrics would have to be negotiated in advance)  I could provide more details, but why bother?

Everyone reading this knows that;

  1. Your monopoly would never allow it (Stossel tried in vain to take the New York Union/Distri