Take Back Urbana

Robert, it is my full intent to run for Mayor of Urbana in 2009

To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield

Mr Dunn, go for it! 

Rex, git er done!

It is happening folks, the ground swell is under way. 

Is any one out there considering a run for the county board as well. 

2,4,6,8, who do we appreciate!

Robert,

I would love to run again for the 103rd District, but I was not even approached by the Party Leaders to discuss it. That cost me nearly $100,000 in business income during that campaign and I am not inclined to do so without some assurance of support, with mailings to fellow professionals at least.

I had asked the State to help me with $10,000 for a 40,000 mailing, labels and envelopes to fellow Engineers, Surveyors and Architects. A 10% return of $100 contributions would have produced $400,000 which I could have used for not only my campaign, but also other local campaigns. I received nothing and we got our butts kicked in this area.

I did put my money were my mouth was, and ......................

The Mayor job is attractive to me because of my association with businesses and developers in this area. I have no doubt I could do it effectively.

But again, Hell, do it.... throw your hat into the ring and make a difference. You will never regret it.

To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield

"I remember when Philo Road was a booming part of town, now its, well, dead!"

Philo Rd has been in decline for many years.  KMart closed what 3 or 4 years ago?  Jerrys 2 or 3?  Jewel must have left 8 or more years ago.

But if you go out there today you'll see lots of action.  The News-Gazette, who generally loves to bash Urbana, had a front page article last Sunday about the rebound underway on Philo Rd.  Right now there's 50-60 million worth of development going on there (my own money estimate).  It includes luxury student apartments and retail on the old KMart site, a Meijer, a large upscale outdoor shopping center, and (just off Philo) Carle and Christie buildings.  Does it have a ways to go?  Sure.  But that is a lot of new development going on.

This revival was one of the current Mayor's primary campaign issues.  I'd say she's doing a great job fulfilling it so far.

Urbana has done a great job of hanging banners all over Philo Road, but can't seem to find anyone to pick up the trash that swirls all over the place.

Yes, Prussing is such an idiot, she should have handed out millions in corporate welfare instead of not paying the developers to do the same thing.

Isn't one of the criticisms of the LEFT that we are economically illiterate?

"The trash is definitely another issue.  Barnes has organized a number of volunteer trash pickups out there, but until the people in that area get better about containing their own trash, it won't change."

That's another concern of mine.  I live and shop in the area, and there seems to be a lot of very low level crime in the area - panhandling, littering, public intoxication, lolitering, etc. - that contribute to the perception that the area is blighted.  It's nothing serious on its own, but easily rectifiable by a little pro-active law enforcement.  Unfortunately, it's been this way for years, and nobody's ever done anything about it.

Just my perception, as an area resident and consumer.

"You've just described Campustown."

True - but the consumer expecations for Campustown are a little different than Philo Road.  Or at least, they should be, IMHO.

"If only there was some type of board made up of citizens that could review law enforcements execution of their job?"

Also true - except I don't think that anyone pushing for a CRB in Urbana is doing so to force proactive law enforcement of petty crime.  That's not the axe they're grinding in public, anyway.

And it wouldn't be hard for the Mayor and Police Chief to fix this problem on their own.  But yet it's been that way since I moved to the area in 1997 - well before Prussing took over, I should add.

"To Anonymous as well, please identify yourself!"

"Hmmm, well i could get the City Council to pass an ordinance that would send out a search team to find out the identity of you Mr. Anonymous! HAHAHA!!! If the Urbana Police find you, pay raise for every officer! Plus, i would tax just you Mr. Anonymous to pay for my treating every Urbana Police Officer to Kennedy's! You get to pay the bill for the entire department!"

Please stop asking for anonymous commenters to identify themselves.  They're perfectly welcome to comment anonymously on here.

If you don't want to answer their questions, please feel free to ignore them.

"I think that Urbana can do better. It is about time that we get a Wal Mart in Urbana. We should not have to drive all the way to Marketplace or North Prospect to get a little non grocery shopping done."

Sigh.  Yes, Robert, please run for City Council.  You'll get really far given your level of knowledge about the city.  Meanwhile, if you're looking for me, you'll find me at the Urbana Wal-Mart.

"Mr Carrino was briefly paraphrased for a newspaper article.   One can't speculate what else he did or did not say."

Then stop doing so.  You are the one who claimed he meant something he didn't actually say.

"Something made all the stores go away."

It was the same thing that made all the stores go away from downtown Champaign.  The retail center of gravity moved outward as consumer buying habits changed.  The heyday of Sunnycrest was roughly contemporaneous with the heyday of Market Place.  So were their downturns and doldrums.  Now they are both experiencing a period of significant recovery and regrowth.  In the meantime, the boundaries for retail have continued to push farther from the center in all directions.

"Urbana again became a desirable place to invest only after the better opportunities in Champaign and Savoy were taken.   No subsidies are needed because there is now too much money chasing too few opportunities.

Home construction revived in Urbana  when locations in Champaign-Savoy became harder to find.  And eventually retail growth follows."

I have to say again that I think that viewpoint is economically naive and quantitatively unverifiable.  There is no lack of opportunities even today in Champaign or Savoy.  Without hardly even trying, I'm guessing that I could probably drive around in one afternoon and find a half dozen locations in or adjacent to Champaign and Savoy that are prime candidates for development.  I could probably find another half dozen in or around Urbana.

I don't think the problem is too much money; there's actually not enough money (or developers) to rapidly take full advantage of all the potential that is out there right now.  If there were too much money, it would just leave town to spur development somewhere else.  That isn't happening.  In fact, it's just the opposite; more money and developers and retailers have been coming in from outside for several years now to grab a piece of the action.  As the entire area continues to grow, that influx of new capital and developers will also continue, in Urbana as well as Champaign and Savoy.

I only just joined this site today.

However, I live in Ward 5. I voted for Dennis Roberts, and of course I know who he is, as do all the others in my neighborhood who voted for him. I have been to picnics with him and other events, for HEUNA, as well as talking to him personally in non-official capacity.

It annoys me that you assume, perhaps because we made other choices for the election than you might have, that we do not know who we have voted for. We do know, and we do know what our taxes are paying for.

If you like to run, that's great, the more on the ballot the merrier as I have always said. But, please don't paint our community as ignorant.

-- Akibare!

Dennis seemed like a decent enough guy when I met him a while ago.

<i>I just think that since Jeff Markland left the mayorship, businesses have left because of the competition with Marketplace and North Prospect. </i>

While I share your concern, I think that wasn't so much about Jeff Markland himself leaving, as about the timing.  Marketplace killed the downtowns, and now we see North Prospect trying to kill Marketplace, although that's still playing out.  We have a retail glut in this country, a supply side overabundance. The results are playing out nationwide, not only in this town. 

If everyone bought as much as they wanted, as much as their hearts desired, assuming they were all rich, there is STILL too much stuff for sale.  So now it's about the market share war.  The market share war is why you have big box stores, it is why groceries no longer will build under 60,000 sq. ft., it's why Wal-Mart sources from China.  In the market share war, the short term strategy is to reduce your price per widget and leave the other guy holding the bag of unsold goods. So, you cheap out on labor (China), and you cheap out on distribution costs (big final packaging plants, and big, big, HUGE stores on the edge of towns).  Of course, all this only increases capacity and worsens the problem, but the market only rewards in the short term, so the cycle continues chewing.

Sadly, those who are worried about peak oil might notice that essentially this means taking valuable organic polymers (read: plastic) and pumping them directly into landfills in the form of unsold goods and scrapped advertising, but in the short term, it doesn't  conflict with the politically correct ideology, so it lives on.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the salient point is that the phenomenon is in no way limited to Urbana, Illinois. The world is a large place.

<i>Also, I would like Urbana to have a movie theater once again. Remember when Urbana Cinema "cafe" showed actual movies?</i>

Yes, I do remember that.  You might note that it's not been a "cafe" for a while either (a peeve of mine - I hang around Kopi in Champaign) but is now an art gallery.

Perhaps you remember for a while there were plans to have a third multiplex in Urbana. Recall, it was to be in Southwest Urbana, by the new Meijer store. 

Fact is, the moviehouse chain backed out, not due to any action on Urbana's part at all, but rather because the major Hollywood distribution houses will only distribute (or would, at the time) to TWO multiplexes for a metro area this size. That means, for every major Hollywood release, the film would go to any TWO of {Beverly|Savoy 16|Urbana New Thing}. The theater chain decided that it would not be worth competing under those conditions, and decided to back out.

Now speaking of Meijer. They too backed out of their own accord, realizing that while there was already a store in Champaign that they might be cannibalizing, they did not, as of the time, have any stores in the Chicago metro area, so decided to go there instead.

You'll note that Meijer is back, now that the market has changed. The theater chains, as far as I know, the economics haven't changed there, and so that will likely be awhile (unless Urbana wants a non-current movies theater).  But again, this has zip-all to do with Urbana's supposed "anti-business" policies - it's simple capitalism at work.

-- Akibare!

Is it competition in Champaign that is the problem for Urbana, or are the problems created for business by the Urbana city government, like the fight it's having with Carle?

"Is it competition in Champaign that is the problem for Urbana, or are the problems created for business by the Urbana city government, like the fight it's having with Carle?"

I'm not sure I would describe it as a fight.  More like a dance, maybe.  And if there is a belligerent partner in that dance, it is Carle, not Urbana.  The administrators at Carle have never seemed to figure out that it would almost always be easier to get what they want if they just stopped behaving like a 500 pound gorilla and maybe answered a few reasonable questions every now and then.

To be fair, part of the problem is that there has always been a public perception that Urbana is somehow anti-business, and Carle is finding it very easy to play that card.  This public perception has occasionally been justified, but more often than not it has been exaggerated by those with other axes to grind.  The fact that Urbana city councils have historically not always fully understood the importance of appearances has just made this easier for their detractors.

The development of Champaign was influenced largely by the siting of the Illinois Central Railroad. The path was chosen based on geology, among other things.  Later, of course, the interstates were laid out, and as it happens, the intersection of the big interstates is in Champaign.

That makes siting big box stores more attractive over there on N. Prospect.  Once the first of those went up (plus the mall was near there already) the others will come - they have to, to play in the market share battle. If you have a Menards, you will have a a Lowe's, etc. 

You'll notice that Urbana does in fact have a Wal-Mart now.  That's partly because N. Prospect is saturated and the stores are looking for second locations. Wal-Mart, as the big behemoth in the game, is the one that can afford to cannibalize its own outlets if necessary, so usually they are the first to make the "second location" move (although here it's the third, as they have one in Savoy also).  There is talk of an interstate interchange being built there for I-74, and that also helped woo the store in - big box stores like big highways, because of the size they're building the stores now.

Philo Road, in fact, went downhill in large part due to the re-routing of Illinois 130 designation from Philo Road to the current IL-130, so traffic dropped off quite a bit.  When K-mart closed, it wouldn't sell, because it's too small of a building for  a modern big-box. Same with the groceries that go out of business - they are simply not sized for the modern fight.  So, they'd have to be torn down, and that takes money. Notice how hard it's been to get small businesses into the various "first floor is business, upstairs is apartments" buildings all over Champaign, too - it's the exact same logic. There are empty storefronts all over the city, and the ones that are filled are often filled with rental agencies for the various "luxury student living" condos going up all over the perimeter.

Curtis Road in Champaign is getting ready to become "N. Prospect South," but that too is largely due to the planned interchange from I-57, which requires that I-57 be there for it to happen - this isn't much about the city government.

Olympian  drive is more complicated, and it has to do with the way the school district boundaries are drawn between Urbana and Champaign.  Essentially, if Olympian drive is developed, business will be attracted, but the taxes from that will go to the Champaign school district because of the boundary lines. So, Urbana asks that maybe Champaign should pay more proportionally the money for the road, to refect the benefit. But, Champaign won't, so, it's being fought over.  You'll recall the arguments over what should happen with the taxes generated by any new hotel complex on the South Farms properties by the Research Park, they were very similar. The uneven development of the University (tax-exempt academic facilities in Urbana, tax-generating business incubators in Champaign) adds to the problem, both real and perceived (and of course, perceptions affect subsequent action and various resentments).

I agree 100% that part of the problem is this meme that Urbana is somehow terribly anti-business, but part of that, I think, is merely proving the old adage that if you say something long enough, people will start to believe it's true.

-- Akibare!

***something long enough, people will start to believe its true.***-this I am trying to show in a thread about the News Media. This is also unfortunate for Urbana and its tax base. Which affects the revenue for its schools, road, Police, Fire Dept and others? You know I guess you have choice in Urbana like we do. Not every economic devolvement that happens does not have some kind of negative aspect and most likely do. Urbana seems to be waiting for the ones that have no issues and it is not helping. In regards to Olympia Dr and South Park we have accepted the negatives here in Champaign we deserve the rewards, and need the revenue that comes with it. Urbana after choosing not to accept pain shouldn't try to then steal the gain from Champaign.

I would suggest if there is really a possibility of a real business growth in Urbana that you ask for another exit off of 74. I also have a problem with Public/Private business's that take property off the tax roles; contacting you state General Assembly would be good.

"Sorry Kevin, I guess seeing and hearing about all those other businesses that wanted to go to Urbana and then seeing them end up in Champaign confused me you must be right?"

Businesses that tried to locate in Urbana and got run off to Champaign by the city council?  You have to be a lot more specific when you make an allegation like that.  Otherwise you're doing exactly what I was talking about above and just making things up to exaggerate the meme and grind an axe.  Let's have a list please, and it had better be a long one to justify the use of the phrase "all those."

"the City Council was fighting tooth and neck against Wal-Mart moving to town."

Another example of what I'm talking about.  That is obviously not what was happening, and is clearly an exaggeration.  The council had some requirements.  Wal-Mart met them.  The council approved.  Wal-Mart was built.  End of story.  If the council had been fighting "tooth and neck against" it, it wouldn't be there now.

Urbana has been chasing away business since before North Prospect Growth started, Sam’s wanted to go there first. Carle and Olympia Drive are just the latest example, you are afraid Champaign will get some of the tax revenue, so you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. I guess some things never change.
 

"Urbana has been chasing away business since before North Prospect Growth started, Sam’s wanted to go there first."

Boy, that's some list.  One example in the last twenty years.  I can see why you needed to refer to it as "all those."  :-)

"the Greens were influential in getting this far-left City Council in the first place!"

That's quite a major piece of faulty revisionist history.  The dems have controlled the Urbana city council for a couple of generations, at least, and it was far left for many, many years before the Greens arrived on the scene.  Like, probably before you were born.

"Did Mayor Prussing and Danielle, by letting a Wal-Mart SuperCenter and Starbucks get past them forget their campaign promise and whose backs they are supposed to scratch, or are they simple opportunists who will say anything to get elected?"

I don't remember any such campaign promises, but to be perfectly honest, I wasn't paying real close attention to the campaign lit at that point.  If you're going to claim that Prussing and Danielle made campaign promises to keep out Wal-Mart and Starbucks, I think we'd probably all be very interested in seeing some proof of that.

Much construction started after Ms. Prussing became mayor, but most of the  construction was negotiated and scheduled before she took office.   No policy she initiated or action she has taken has contributed to the activity on S Philo Rd.    (Disputing this will require examples.)

Policy differerences existed between Satterthwaite and some of the Council members,  but this in no way impeded city business.   (Again provide examples to dispute this.) Several then council members supported Prussing over Satterthwaite, and successfully waged an election campaign featuring Satterthwaite as the ogre.

A good working relationship between the mayor and Chief Administrative Officer, like Walden and Satterthwaite apparently had, is postive.   You need to specify what you mean by a "good-ol' boys network," and specifically how this impeded Urbana.

"Improving relations," when any bad relations are based on policy differences, does not make for better city government.     The timing of projects in SE Urbana has no relation to  any new atmosphere.  

The animosities between the previous council and mayor could just as easily be blamed on the several council members who had the biggest differences with the former mayor--Patt, Wyman, Huth and Chynoweth.   (The former mayor may well have considered these four to be his "bad ol' girls network.")   The city council under Prussing has only one returning member, Ms Chynoweth.    The new council, probably beacause of its members' higher median age, appears more capable of avoiding acrimony.  Satterthwaite likely would have had a good working relationship with the current Council.

The only advantage to having Prussing as mayor is that her surname does not challenge phonetic intuition.  Previous posts to this thread suggest that many consider the new atmosphere created by Prussing as a lot worse than hot air

Whether or not Ms Chynoweth was arrested in 1999 is of no importance.

(And tell the owner of this blog to implement  a spell checker.)

Michael Fuerst

Michael,

God you are killing me.

"Prussing as mayor is that her surname does not challenge phonetic intuition."

Now "Bradfield", doesn't that have a nice ring to it?

Curious,

With all due respect, if I specifically address those issues, then the Mayor will be able to figure out the individuals with whom I am chatting. She has a proven history of firing someone who is not on her page, and I will be dammed if I take that chance to help you do your homework do your own homework. Take the time, look up any public records and you will be able to confirm what I say.

"The thing is, they didn't start building until Prussing was in office"

Of course they didn't, that is what I said. It didn't matter who was in office when the construction schedule commenced, it was already approved and was going to commence anyway. Geeze

"good ol' boys", come on be more creative than that, besides in a "good ol' boys" operation, one does not work with the other. Bruce and Todd were on different sides of the political fence, but Todd recognized his limitations and understood the necessity of Bruce's abilities.

I have noticed in todays council that it is hard to find out who is wearing the "cow bell". Hell one meeting Smyth was running the meeting and Prussing was there, silent. By God if you are gonna run things, then run them. Presently we have interchangeable Mayors, as Lou and Bud said "Who's on First."

You have not addressed the most important point of my post. She does not have adequate experience to undertake development efforts in Urbana and she fired the person who could have helped her get that experience. Now we are left with her, while you are looking things up, check out her development experience and job resume'.

Akibare,

Yes, I did read your post.

I knew the County Market was there before IGA left, but check the parenthesis after my reference and you will understand my meaning.

The suggested intersection at I-74 and Highcross, is as far from being cast in stone as it can be. There are certainly not the traffic counts, residences, businesses, or other contributing factors in that area to warrent such a large expenditure of money. Because of the close proximity to University Ave., most likely those two intersections would be combined, a HUGE problem and VERY expensive. Hell the District 5 is lucky to have enough money to grind expansion bumps, let alone such a major undertaking with no promised tax revenues resulting. The automotive plant in Bloomington is a prime example, or a necessary intersection. Lynch Road in Danville, served all the manufacturing plants when they were open.

Your statements on Olympia drive are in content on the right track except you leave out a major and MOST important issue, Urbana's monetary contribution and where does it come from? That has always been a point and it is not there now, will have to be borrowed.

My point about Lincoln Square is, it is fruitless to try to compete with Champaign, with conventional Mall philosophies, to be successful, a Leader must initiate new ideas, have faith in those ideas and offer something that your competetor, cannot offer. In the suggested case, a unique building with parking incorporated into an area that does not use up anymore farm land and attracts national attention.

Thanks for reading my posts and I look forward to your comments.

In closing, I will show my age and ask, does anyone remember what was at the location of the Market Place McDonalds before the Mall was there? Say in 1966 or 67?...I do know.

To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield

You are correct barrelmaker, That is certainly a large part of it.

But now in addition to the issues previously discussed, if Champaign can negotiate with the owners of the property and similiar property, sign an annexation agreement with them (similiar to American Water), then they can successfully block any Urbana expansion to the North.

I will post a blog on the unbelieveable consequences of the Chatum vs Sangamon Co. ruling and the effect it can have on creating pre-annexation wars and government without representation.

To that end, I am, and shall always remain; Rex Bradfield

But now in addition to the issues previously discussed, if Champaign can negotiate with the owners of the property and similiar property, sign an annexation agreement with them (similiar to American Water), then they can successfully block any Urbana expansion to the North.

I was under the impression that since Urbana had first dibs on the land east of the ICRR the land could be annexed by the City and turned into a TIF district whereby the City of Urbana would be in complete control of property tax distributions from potential developments on that land for the next 35 years and could divert excess TIF revenue from the land to the School District.

Source of impression?

Was source a signed agreement?  Who signed?, Terms?

Excess monies? or designated amount?

Any property can be annexed to any city/village if it meets the requirements of annexation.

I'm very familiar with the requirements of annexation; however, I think I remember reading something about it in the News-Gazette a number of years ago when construction began on the Olympian Drive project.  I believe that the City of Urbana talked about annexing the area and creating a new TIF district around the Lincoln & proposed Olympian Drive intersection if an agreement wasn't worked out between the school districts to share the revenue that might result from development of the area.  I think the area in question was part of the old Stewart school district that became part of CUSD 4 but when the cities & Savoy set boundaries for annexations a few years back (around the time of the first fringe annexation agreement involving the Sanitary District, the cities, Savoy & the County) I think that area was designated for inclusion in the City of Urbana.  The City of Urbana may not be continguous to it yet, while the City of Champaign may be, which may make any previous agreements null & void. I'm not that up on the current municipal boundaraies. I'm relying on memory, which at my age is generally faulty and I'm probably completely incorrect but that is what I remember.

I refuse to live in a nuclear free zone.  After years of hearing "well, why not nuclear bombs?" from gun control proponents I have decided that I want the right to keep and bear nuclear arms.  And Urbana just makes that even more difficult.

If you outlaw intercontinental thermonuclear weapons only outlaws will have intercontinental thermonuclear weapons!

--

Glock21 Op/Ed

2.  What business was at the McDonald's Location near 5-Points and where was McDonald's located before it moved to its present location?

Ponderosa Steakhouse? McDonalds was originally in front of T&C, the original Golden Arches.

3. What two resturants were located across the street from each other at 5 Points? (Hint, one of them was famous for serving steaks to U of I athletes and the other was a place that a lot of the bands that played at the Assembly Hall visited when they were in town.

Town & Country steakhouse & The Embers?

Now one for you - what did the Red Wheel on University turn into before it became Miko's?

Barrelmaker,

My mistake, my description should have said was at the PRESENT location near 5-points.

Answer: A bowling alley right across the street from the old "Chiko's Tavern".

Ponderosa, was the victim of an arson crime and was originally located at the tile floor business just east of the car wash at Maple and University. The Embers was on Prospect Ave, where the Mexican Food is now and the Embers burned also. Gotta watch out for those well done steaks....

Yep for your location of the first MacDonalds, I thought the golden arches were great at that location which is now the new Walgreens.

The other business that had the bands was Manzella's, it was at the corner where the new Credit Union complex is being constructed. My date and I went there after a concert that had the Spoonfull's and Association on the same marquee (talk about bang for your buck). We were right beside the "Back Room" entrance and in walked the Spoonfull's. I said hello and cool concert and John Sebastian invited my date and I back to a private party (that lasted until you did not need your headlights to drive home). Remember the 3-Dog Night song "Momma Told me"?................. There you have it.

Red Wheel...hmmmmm....I remember it was a bar resturant and a cool place. I want to say it was Mabels from the Campus, but that ain't my final answer.

To that end, I am, and shall always remain;
Rex Bradfield

Robert Dunn: uh, yeah she was, she will admit to it! I went to a discussion about the WTO when they got back, and she did say she was arrested! Maybe curious needs to get his facts straight before denying something that Danielle admits. She was arrested for civil disobedience. that is different then her being arrested for armed robbery

You still didn't say what this has to do with her role on the city council.  Is there a point to this "take back Urbana from the 'lefties'" garbage, or are you grasping for straws because there are holes in your logic that you can drive a truck through?  Urbana is the way it is because that's what a large majority of its citizens want it to be right now.  Just because Urbana is not bending over and saying "thank you sir, may I have another" like Champaign does when it hands out millions of dollars of funds to business doesn't make them anti-business or communist, it makes them cautious stewards of the city, acting in the best interests of the citizens who elected them.  This is more absurd than the "Bozo Urbana" campaign being waged by Michael Furst, which is pretty absurd in its own right.

mjerryfurst: The bars and restaurants in downtown Champaign derive almost no significant business because of the train station.   The volume of train passengers is insignificant.     Bars and restaurants do most of theri business at night when the train station is mostly dormant. 

They don't today, but if you look at this from a historical perspective (a la the "History of Champaign County" series on late-night public access), Champaign/West Urbana has always had a thriving liquor scene, and it's directly related to the location of the railroad.  Imagine how downtown would look if they had succeeded in moving the courthouse to West Side Park....

Rex: Yep, the angled road was Cunningham Ave, which is now vacated. 5 points were University Ave E(1), W(2), Cunningham Ave.N(3) and SW(4) and Vine St. (5).

As an aside, I'm enjoying reading about little tidbits of history here from Rex (I don't hate everything you post :), and I'm curious as to why Cunningham Ave. going SW was abandonded.  Not enough traffic to justify it anymore?  Have you seriously considered getting involved with any of the local historical committees?

I also think you should be complimenting me for my spiritual and intellectual growth, since my most recent letter to the editor did not once use that four letter "b" word.

But the T-shirt guy at Farmer's Market has one that says, "Urbana bozo and proud of it!"  Maybe you're becoming an icon.

If you perceive flaws Mr. Dunn's logic you should explain the flaws  rather than just decalre his logic as having holes large enough to drive a truck through.  A truck's worth of flaws certainly merits a paragraph or two of explanation.

I think other posters here have done a good job of pointing out the many, many flaws such as the claims of no Wal-Mart in Urbana, the city is ruled under the ever-tightening oppressive iron grip of the UCIMC[1] and the Green Party, etc.  I see no need to continually repeat it, but if it would make you feel warm and fuzzy, I can accomodate.

Urbana is not the way it is (whether or not such is good or bad) because of what the citizens want, but as a result of physical circumstance and the collective actions of city council and staff members over many years.

No, Urbana is the way it is because that's what its citizens want.  If so many of them agreed with you, they would have voted more conservative candidates into office or moved to Champaign/Savoy/elsewhere.  To quote Gordy, they get exactly the government they deserve.  I just don't see that as a bad thing if the government they deserve is also the government they want.

The recent growth in bars and entertaniment in downtown Champaign has nothing to do with the train station.    The effects of history were long ago dissipated.

I don't think it is as prominent as it was before, but I believe it is a factor.  Just the fact that rail allowed more people into the area gave Champaign a population advantage over Urbana that will never be overcome.  History's effects are most certainly not dissipated....Heck, the growth spurt in downtown really took off when the station was moved across the street (or at least shortly after is when I started noticing positive changes).

i speculate that if the courthouse had been moved to near Westside Park many years ago, Urbana would have become so inconsequential that it would have merged with Champaign soon thereafter.

And if the railroad had gone through Urbana, Champaign would never have existed, and this conversation would probably be moot.

Concerning your comment about Rex's post, if you view posts as items to "hate," rather than items to respectfully disagree with, you are posting on the wrong  forum and your comments will be viewed with decreasing respect and credibility.

Disagree is more appropriate yes, but apparently your browser does not know how to parse smiley faces :) Here I was extending an acutal genuine interest in what he posted and respect for his knowledge of local history, something I have an immense interest in, and making light of the fact that he and I apparently never see eye-to-eye on anything else....   Also, I believe my liberal nature and leanings already give me less credibility and respect here, so I'm not overly concerned idle comments about how I am posting on the wrong forum, especially when every couple weeks we're all treated to a letter showing how you "respectfully disagree" with Urbana...

I also think you should be complimenting me for my spiritual and intellectual growth, since my most recent letter to the editor did not once use that four letter "b" word.

I am impressed you managed to not use "bozo" in your latest letter.  I just assumed that it wasn't really you writing it...

[1] Honestly, who in their right mind could possibly believe this?  I'm fairly liberal, but even I think these guys (UCIMC, not the Greens) couldn't organize a two-car funeral, let alone a massive, covert infiltration of city politics.....

"Also, I believe my liberal nature and leanings already give me less credibility and respect here, ...."

i disagree.   Well argued and supported postions are respected here.     I am probably not too much less liberal than you.

Michael Fuerst

As I recall, there never was a true 5 points. Cunningham from the south began at Broadway (that part of Cunningham is now called Courtesy Drive) and followed the Boneyard NE then bridged it before intersecting with University. Broadway north to Cunningham and then 5 Points was the main route to Rantoul and points north.

Vine was not a point until Urbana built the Vine St. underpass in the fifties. After the underpass was completed,  the beginning diagonal part of Cunningham was closed.

Oh, and I believe the Embers (2) was at the site on University where Midas is now. The business was Americana Smorgasbord before that.

This is fun brain work. Maybe I'll start a thread. Things need to lighten up around here anyway.

Arvid,

Thanks, please understand that my surveying profession causes me to be a historian.  We not only have to research all these things when we do surveys, but we are actually there seeing them and measuring them and enjoying them.  It is that passion for Urbana that drives me.  I find it so sad when changes are made thoughtlessly.  Few in the area can enjoy the pleasures of understanding and researching these places.  It is truly wonderful and it is that passion that none in City Government now even can come close to because they never had the opportunities to actually do as I have.

That is the reason, I seek public office in my later years.

Now in response to your other questions, I have already donated many aerial photos to the Urbana Library, when I owned an aerial photo business.  I believe there are sitll there.  Take a look at them, they are really interesting.  I always found it interesting that Urbana, had a huge detention basin on Michigan Ave. West of Anderson and North of Michigan and East of Vine.  You can still see the huge collection inlets on Michigan, but it was abandoned for development. Go figure.

Yes, Manzella's did predate the Holiday Inn.

To Eggs and Arvid also:

Cunningham was angled back to broadway to allow the traffic a straight route to get to the TRAIN STATION, yep at that time it was important to get to the Station, many many many drafted soldiers left from that train station and the one in Champaign to go to war, some never returned.

and the last on the historic facts for a while.  I posted this earlier and no one responded:

"does anyone remember what was at the location of the Market Place McDonalds before the Mall was there? Say in 1966 or 67?... I do know"

I would bet that 99 out of a hundred will be astonished at the answer.  It was right at the north end of the interstate intersection and was something that was very popular at that time for recreation.

Michael,

Your posts are right on point, and precisely what I wanted to generate with my posts.  Informative thinking, collecting all the facts and really getting a grasp on what did happen in Urbana.  Bravo to you.  If we could only get elected officials to follow these guidelines and think twice before they act once (for political reasons, then we would not be where we are).  Yes you are correct that down town Urbana can compete, if they do it the way I suggested.  The traffic paths are there, and the parking can be incorporated into the buildings.  Remember Champaign Urbana is one of only two cities that have 3 interstate highways in the area.  I-74 from Danville made Lincoln Square a popular shopping area, even when Danville had its own downtown.  A well conceived highrise building could provide all the commercial spaces needed and not take up one additiona square foot of farmland in the area.  Overhead walkways, like they have in Chicago and St. Louis, would allow the existing old buildings to remain and flourish, while still being connected to the high rise.  It would work.

On the bike paths in railroad embankments,  I know some are being used for that, but consider this:

I believe with the energy trends as they are, interurban rail transportation is going to be necessary again.  I am old enough to remember the trolly lines in Danville and the Inter-Urban Trains that ran from Danville and though Champaign-Urbana (the first train I actually saw, was a coal locomotive).  They were an adventure.  That being said, railroad embankments are structures that have been constructed with compaction to allow them to support the weight of trains and that type of construction is a very sizeable asset.  To waste these assets on non load producing bike paths when the strong possibility of them being necessary again, is a waste of those resources.  The bike paths should be construced parallel with these assets whenever possible.

Think about San Francisco and the trolly lines.  They do provide tansportation, but really what they do is provide something more interesting to get from point to point than a damned automobile.  Trolly lines and a high rise in Urbana.  Well, Well, Well.

Hey I have enjoyed everyone reading my posts and getting some new ideas.  Damn it, that is the way people should interact.

Thanks for reading my posts and I look forward to more comments.

To that end, I am, and shall always remain; Rex Bradfield