In light of the recent school shootings, Dave Kopel writes a thought-provoking piece at NRO today about possible self-defense options.
He offers up a lot of ideas, including concealed-carry and self defense training for both the teachers and students.
Kopel references Utah, which has allowed concealed-carry, even on school grounds, since 1995. In 11 years, there have been "zero reported problems of concealed handgun licensees misusing guns at school, or students stealing guns from teachers, or teachers using their licensed firearms to shoot or threaten students. During this same period, we also have had exactly zero mass murders in Utah schools."
Kopel adds, "A person has the right to choose to be a pacifist, but it is wrong to force everyone else to act like a pacifist. It is the policies of the pacifist-aggressives which have turned American schools into safe zones for mass murderers."
You hate to think about such things, but he might have a point.
Isn't there also compelling evidence of crime reduction in other states that allow concealed carry? I'm thinking Florida has some interesting stats. Anyone out there know the details or know of a site with the details?
I think one thing that emboldens the kids who shoot up their school is knowing that there won't be any resistance. They can go on their shooting spree... as soon as the cops arrive, they kill themselves - so it's clear they aren't interested in a real shooting match. I think if the kids knew there were even just a few armed adults in the school, they would seriously think twice about doing it. I think what they are seeking is that feeling of complete control and domination - to make up for how they normally feel about themselves. Arming some teachers or staff would remove that fantasy and make going to the school to shoot the place up much less glamorous. They would not be able to hold everyone at their mercy.
RSW,
Teachers already have to act as parents as well as be educators, thanks to liberal tolerance of bad behavior. Should teachers have to be security guards too? Why not just require public school districts to hire actual security guards?
the point of the article wasn't that they HAD to be security guards, but maybe shouldn't be told they COULDN'T.
ILvoter has a point... I think we would be better off just hiring security guards, and have them do some teaching. That way, we could get rid of the teachers altogether ;)
give everybody small nuclear weapons
I found a map showing states that allow concealed carry and those that don't. Someone seeing this map really brings it home.
http://www.moccw.org/map.html
How about this for a suggestion: No guns for the public.
I could concede that we should placate the hunters among us by allowing single-shot shotguns/rifles with no magazines.
How about this for a suggestion: No guns for the public.
Are you joking? If not, are you suggesting that the government repeal the 2nd amendment and then (since we know that criminals will not follow the law - handguns are illegal in Chicago, yet that hasn't stopped any murders) have the military go door to door searching and confiscating all firearms?
What a great idea. They just could rig the metal detectors that are already in poor schools to buzz whenever somebody walks into school *without* a gun. Ah, educational paradise, as imagined in the conservative mind:
"BUZZ!"
"Bobby, step aside!"
"I'm . . . I'm sorry Mr. Johnson."
"Bobby, we've been through the before."
"I know, I . . . I'm sorry. I didn't bring a gun. But I did bring this switchblade!"
"Sorry, Bobby, but that just doesn't pack the kind of killing power you're *required* to bring to school. Bobby, what would Jesus say to such a puny man-killer? [Shaking his head] Looks like it's downstairs to the stress-position workshop for you."
"NOOOOooo!"
This brings us to the end of another episode of "Conservative Paradise Theater." Tune in again next week as more liberal students get sent to the stress postion workshop, after they bring up Michael Moore "round earth" propaganda in science class. Right here on Conservative Paradise Theater!
Adam raised the relevant point that usually goes unmentioned. Schools currently offer no resistance. No defense. High casualty potential. Enormous pressure to comply. You don't see these people holding hostages in a police station, do you?
Arizona has better than concealed carry. They make you leave it out in plain sight. If you're a bad guy, are you going to go after the person with the visible sidearm or the person without?
I will vote for anybody who can get me my right to concealed carry. I will not vote for anyone who will not fight to get me concealed carry regardless of any other issue.
What are the positions of: Blago, JBT, Frerichs, Myers, Jacobbsen, Bradfield?
Anybody?
Hmm. Something tells me I've seen Anonymous 3:52 somewhere before . . .
The only people who want to force their will on others are the ones who want to take the guns away. Those in favor of *allowing* school staff to carry guns have and will never suggest that anyone should be compelled to do so.
Even the possibility that there are armed school staff would, in my opinion, reduce the number of school shooting incidents.
edit - "have and will never" -> "never have and never will"
Sorry interloper, I'm not Dale Gribble.
I am an American, and want the same rights as those people in 48 other states.
I hate to bust anybody's balloons here, but allow me to point out one simple thing: you may feel that without pistol-packing students and teachers that schools are "defenseless"; however the fact is that almost without exception those who have instigated school shootings have ended up dead.
More guns floating around in the hands of teachers and students will only increase the potential for violence to commense in everyday circumstances (confrontations, gang activity and so forth), and is unlikely to discourage those who have resolved to kill themselves by shooting up the school.
I have nothing against having a cop or two in schools that have violence problems, or a specially trained security officer of some sort. But to give every nervous Mister Keen-bean a gun 'cuz his students scare him is just asking for trouble. And the idea of giving schoolkids guns to take to class? So crazy I can hardly address it.
All qualified citizens should be allowed to carry firearms. Some places should be excepted: schools, bars, churches, to name a few.
A well armed society is a polite society.
"More guns floating around in the hands of teachers and students will only increase the potential for violence to commense in everyday circumstances"
that is a logical thought, but it has not happened in Utah (see original post)
And, yes, I do realize the school atmosphere in Utah is probably a bit different than, say, Chicago or Champaign
RSW, you are too generous, I don't think it's a logical thought. It would only be true if people did not adjust their behavior in the presence of a gun. In a room with 1 armed bad guy and 9 unarmed good guys is more dangerous than a room with 1 armed bad guy and 9 armed good guys. In which situation is a shot more likely to be fired?
Are stabbings more common in houses where there are more knives?
Also, guns do not float around.
And the kids end up dead as soon as armed police arrive, and they usually kill themselves, which indicates to me that they want to avoid a real confrontation - thus if they knew there were armed staff members in the school they might decide against the shooting spree in the first place.
"however the fact is that almost without exception those who have instigated school shootings have ended up dead."
Not before they've killed others first. Arming teachers (who want to be) acts as a deterrent, plain and simple. They have a chance to eliminate the bad guy before the bad guy kills a student.
"RSW, you are too generous, I don't think it's a logical thought"
I am willing to concede the scary scenario where a group of unarmed students in a classroom get upset and decide to take the gun from a teacher they believe to be "packing". Kind of like a prisoner taking a gun from his guard. But that would require a pretty wide rebellion in the classroom, and some pretty nasty students.
I teach exactly in the environment that people are envisioning when they think of this policy, and let me tell you, this is the worst possible reaction. The prison-like environment of the schools is a large part of the low-achievement and violent nature of the schools. How is the knowledge that teachers are equipped and primed to use deadly force against their own charges going to help that atmosphere?
There are a lot of good people who mistrust and fear law enforcement for similar reasons. Teachers cannot both threaten deadly force and be child advocates and allies at the same time.
I say this as someone who actually does choice to jump into the middle of skirmishes on a daily, or at least weekly basis.
Please feel free to disagree and critique my perspective, but I humbly request that Adam or any of the other low-lifes who seem to love personally attacking teachers regularly come and work my job for a week.
Only a fool would send a child to a school where teachers were allowed to carry guns, and only a Republican would base his vote on who would support his right to carry a gun. Of course, not all Republicans are idiots, but nearly all idiots are Republican, and anyone who would advocate concealed carry for teachers and principals in schools is surely both an idiot and a Republican.
Right on, Xian. When was the last time any of these people stood in front of a bunch of teenagers and tried to teach?? Thanks for showing up for work everyday and for doing something that makes a REAL difference -- instead of just talking the talk about how to make the world a better place :)
Xian, just because you teach in Chicago doesn't mean your theories are correct. And as far as teaching for a week... you should know more than anyone that there is no way that is possible. The NY teachers union did the same thing with John Stossel. My criticisms of teachers come from many years of working with teachers and school administrators. My experience with them is exactly the reason I am not a K12 teacher.
Anyway, these school shooting rampages don't tend to occur in schools like the Chicago Public Schools... probably because the kids usually aren't in the school to begin with. Columbine was hardly a prison-like environment. And if I wanted schools to be like prisons, I wouldn't give teachers guns, I would give them protective gear and clubs.
If you look at the psychological profiles of the kids who do these shootings, I think you'll see that they will only be violent when they are in complete control. They are the kids who are outcasts and picked on... if they could handle conflict, they wouldn't be as isolated as they are. It makes perfect sense to me that if these kids thought that shortly upon entering the school they would be confronted by an armed staff person, they would probably not want to do it.
Xian writes "Teachers cannot both threaten deadly force and be child advocates and allies at the same time."
Are you kidding? There are millions of parents out there right now who would threaten deadly force against anyone who would threaten their children. Those parents are certainly "advocates and allies at the same time." Its about protecting those who need protecting and threatening mass murders with certain retribution if they want to kill our children.
Security guards? Fine idea, but as soon as one of the little psychopaths kills that security guard, the kids are left unprotected.
Not knowing who has their own weapon under their jacket makes the "bad guys" think twice before starting their rampage.
Remember Bernard Goetz and the NY City subway shooting? Until he turned himself in, crime was almost nonexist in the subway. The muggers and the hoodlums didn't know if their next victim would be Goetz who just might "shoot back."
When you can convience all the gun-toting criminals to give up their guns, then and only then, talk to me about giving up my gun.
Are you kidding? There are millions of parents out there right now who would threaten deadly force
This brilliant bit of Republican child psychology gives me an idea: since it's such a great idea for teachers to carry guns around, in case they decide to blow away some of their students, maybe we should also encourage parents to use guns in the same loving way. Next time Junior smarts off, just give a pat to the 'ole peacemaker under the jacket. Problem solved!
Isn't it nice the way guns can to fix so many of our social problems?
Dems/libs look at guns as a means to punish. Repubs/cons look at guns as a means of protecting the innocent.
Having 2 or 3 teachers with handguns under their coats is not a "prison-like environment".
And, finally, does actual history and evidence do anything to sway the opinions of those who oppose this idea? Israel and Thailand allow armed teachers apparently. Utah seems to have a pretty good history with this policy.
I would like to add a note of caution. The unspoken assumption here is that children in schools are at particular risk of injury from deranged shooters. That is possible, but I see no attempt to quantify that risk, and tend to doubt it exists. Even assuming that we are looking at a real trend and not a statistical aberration, arming teachers may not hurt, but why can't the kids in long coats go to the mall? We can't arm teenage salespersons at Abercrombie.
The other conservative response is to suck it up. I personally would like to see personal carry, for many of the reasons suggested above, but let's not pretend that concealed carry is a solution to nuts at school, or that shootings at school is even close to the biggest problem at these institutions.
If you want to see a solution in search of a problem, check out the security overkill at almost every courthouse in the country. What happens? Judges, who are statistically safer than most, get shot outside the courthouse and demand security at home also. These are the guys and gals to arm. Then guys like me can start carrying around pocket knives again.
John
"The unspoken assumption here is that children in schools are at particular risk of injury from deranged shooters."
Actually, John, in the article it was very much a spoken assumption. Schools are scene as 'gun-free' zones, and easy targets for psychos and even terrorists.
Red,
The question is not whether they are easy targets. In fact, almost everything is an easy target. The question is whether they have, in fact, become likely targets. Don't get me wrong. If a teacher shoots first and asks questions later, I have no beef. I would just rather the teacher be competent than armed.
If I thought like a Democrat, I would start a thread here claiming that school shootings were directly related to bad teaching skills. But then I would be dealing with Foley and Xian for the rest of the week. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
John
The problem is not that people criticize teacher's skills. It's that they have no clue as to the realities of day-to-day life in the classroom.
Empathy takes more competence and ability than labelling kids "little psychopaths". The simple fact is that this generation is less violent than the previous generation. However, the policies of school overcrowding, insufficient teacher training, insufficient resources and lack of preventitive intervention certain don't help reduce such violence.
I'm not saying that a gun is absolutely never necessary in the schools, I'm just saying that it's typical that people who can't be bothered to educate themselves about the realities of schooling would use that as a FIRST solution rather than a last resort. Before I saw guns in the classroom, I would like to see research that shows:
1) It would actually reduce violence.
2) There is actually a problem with violence beyond isolated news incidents. (How many of you think that all buildings should be outfitted with anti-aircraft devices to prevent New York Yankees from flying their planes into them on accident?)
3) That it is remotely feasible to screen who would be allowed to carry weapons in schools.
4) That you actually give a rat's-ass about kids and their education.
Ok the last one is gratuitious, sorry about that.
Also, I'd like to see some sort of thoughtful plan that demonstrates:
1) How you would actually implement this.
2) That you are interested in other solutions to school violence problems besides shooting kids.
3) That you have some understanding of the variety of environments in the huge school system that would be affected by such a provision.
Adam's "I worked with some administrators once, so your experience doesn't make you an authority" is typical. But I do hold hope that I'll learn something interesting from the rest of you.
And yes, even teacher's make grammatical errors in an informal setting :P
I support concealed carry, but it would be tough to sell me on the idea of letting any teacher carry at school. We're installing metal detectors to keep guns out, so letting hundreds of guns be "badged in" every day increases the risk of one ending up in the hands of a gang banger or some whacked-out kid with an authority problem. Prison guards don't carry guns because the risk is greater than the risk the gun would be intended to prevent. Despite wall-to-wall coverage on CNN when they happen, the risk of school shootings is miniscule, and I am guessing far less than the risks associated with putting hundreds of firearms into play in a busy school.
That being said, I think it's a fine idea to arm a few responsible, background checked and firearms trained "officers" (who might be administrators or teachers) in each school to act as first responders. It's probably better that they carry openly than carry concealed--more deterrent effect and less confusion over who's supposed to be armed and who's not. Even mall rent-a-cops carry weapons, and I place a higher priority on protecting our kids than protecting T-shirts at The Gap. As the Luby's Cafeteria theory goes, it only takes one gun in the right hands to deter or put a quick end to a situation involving a gun in the wrong hands.
”ÂÂzero reported problems of concealed handgun licensees misusing guns at school, or students stealing guns from teachers, or teachers using their licensed firearms to shoot or threaten students. During this same period, we also have had exactly zero mass murders in Utah schools.”ÂÂ
Take their statistics with a grain of salt. 11 years with "zero mass murders in Utah schools?" How many mass murders were there in the 11 years before that? How many mass murders were there in Illinois in the past 11 years, in a state with one of the most restrictive gun laws in the country? Utah isn't exactly a state where I'd expect to see metal detectors at every door to keep the Mormon gangbangers from packing in school.
There is a big difference between a responder and someone who is already there.
I support concealed carry, but it would be tough to sell me on the idea of letting any teacher carry at school.
I just realized this sounded like I was saying that no teacher should be allowed to carry. What I meant was that not just any teacher should be allowed to carry. I'd support arming specific teachers who have been background checked and weapons trained, in the context of an overall school security strategy. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I writes the English real good.