Two Pictures of Faith in Action

They won't. They'll find a way to blame it on Israel, just like everything else.

I thought the Pope was sorry that for the reaction to his words, but not for what he actually said. Maybe I'm not up on the latest.

Another thing, it still amazes me that the D.I. was the one and only paper in the United States that published the Danish cartoons.

The Pope has not taken the words back and repudiated them as some Muslim clerics the ME would like, but the Pope apologized for the offense and the old text that was read. I don't believe he should have done that much. He should have seized upon the outrage as a point of example to further dialogue and not stifle it.

The Christian world doesn't need to say profane things about Islam, and we couldn't care less what they say about Christianity or Israel. Why should we? We have all the power.

We invade their countries, bribe their governments, and blow the shit out of anyone we find offensive. It's the new American Way. We are accountable to no one but ourselves. We can kill 50,000 Iraqi civilians, hold innocents indefinitely without trial or charges, and torture random Arabs at will. Who's going to stop us? This guy and his Bic lighter? I doubt it.

We are held accountable by systems of justice we preside over. We are our own judge, jury, and executioner.

So why not declare the nun a Saint and the pyromaniac a Demon? It's our call to make, and you all are more than happy to make it.

As my Momma used to say, "Don't break that arm patting yourself on the back, now."

^

So is it fair to ask how long it is going to take before someone renounces the above?

Why renounce it?

Cancer needs to be excised. History shows the problem. I'm sick of PC. I'm sick of centuries of this problem. If Islam was more peaceful than violent, we woulldn't be facing the most violent times on earth ever involving Muslims. No other culture, noother religion, has tried to conquer the world by killing everyone and everything in its path. Their formula is: renounce all you believe AND embrace Islam or die. I merely say, "Renounce Islam." They do not have embrace anything, but they MUST renounce Islam. Or die. They want that fight, I say, take it to them. Now.

This is not a fight about land, about resources, about power. It is about life itself, a culture trying to subjugate the world, a culture that will destroy itsef to reach those ends.

Just like cancer.

If the moderate Muslim community were speaking out strongly and in great numbers, believe me, we would all be celebrating. With the number of Muslims in the U.S. and world, and the number of organized Muslim groups, a dozen groups speaking out is a drop in the bucket.
______

My point is that you have no idea which groups are or are not speaking out against it because you are ignorant of Muslim communities and Muslims promoting peace is not as "newsworthy" as Muslims promoting violence.

A Muslim is no more responsible for the actions of other Muslims than you are. To claim that they are is flat-out bigotry--the grouping of people based on prejudice.

In my experience, non-violent Muslims are doing a far better job of promoting peace and condemning violence than pretty much any other group. If it's not good enough for you, perhaps you should be putting more effort into strategic intervention on this issue and less effort into vilification?

Although Rid the World is wrong for wanting all Muslims to be killed, his premise that Muslims have, since their inception, conquered and killed in the name of their religion is correct. There are accounts of Muhommad taking part in killings in the Koran. That is how Islam spread prior to the crusades. The crusades were in response to their brutal invasion. Islam can be interpreted in a very violent way, and unfortunately there is a substantial percentage of the Muslim world that adheres to that teaching. However, there is a larger number who don't. Those are the Muslims that need to stand up and speak louder.

As the Pope said, conversion does not happen through violence. Reason will prevail, if the message is allowed to be heard.

Thank you Joan. Rid the World's comments were unacceptable.

Xian,

There was a subtle hypocracy in your comments above. On the one hand you claim that moderate Muslims are no more responsible for the violence perpetrated by jihadist Muslims and therefore bear no more responsibility to speak out against it. On the other, when a wacko puts out a comment like Rid the World did, you didn't feel responsibility to rennounce it, you expected someone else, presumable one of the more conservative commenters here to do it. Which I did immediately. You looked to "the group" of conservatives to stand up against his comments because you believed it was "our" responsibility.

That is the same way most look to the moderate Muslims to condemn the violent forces that share their same identity.

Excellent point handymom.

The issue of radical Islam (or any other philosophical outlier) is not that you are at war with a people or a culture, but an idea.

How do you kill a bad idea?

WGAK,A:

Good call. Let's sit back and use LOGIC against suicide bombers and IED makers and users. That'll show'em. Then we'll open our borders and our arms and give them all a big hug once they come around and see the light.

Gosh, what were we thinking? It's not like bringing the fight to them and keeping the pressure on has yeilded any results...like the capture of hundreds of Al Qaida, the fact that another terrorist attack hasn't happened on US soil since 9/11, the removal of an immoral dictator, the replacement of a Fundamenalist, repressive regime, the Al Qaida leadership hiding in caves and operating (less-than-effectively) by courier, democratic governments set up in two formerly completely backward countries.

And that's all in just five years, and we're not even close to being done yet. There's going to be speed bumps and wrinkles whenever you change the status quo, and bad things are bound to happen on the tactical level, but long-term strategic and political improvement is happening and continues to happen.

"Joan Dykstra Says:
September 19th, 2006 at 10:26 pm

I could not let “Rid the World's” comments stand. He says it just to shock (as usual). Criticize Christians, Muslims, Jews, but not death threats.

Sister Leonella lived her life as a Godly, humble servant. Ultimately, it is all about the character of the individual that makes a religion, that makes a nation, that makes the world we live in."

That is absolute nonsense, feel-good Politcal Correctness. Religion is NOT about the character of the individual, that is moral relativism. Religion is about what the religion is, stands for, advocates, demands of its adherents. Islam demands the infidels be killed, and everyone except Muslims are, to them, infidels. It is not a 'religion", it is a call to murder, no more and no less than some criminal street gang.

The people that get sucked into such beliefs should be given a chance to repent, to renounce, to wake up, to leave the criminal organization, or get punished, whatever that takes, to crush, destroy, eliminate the criminal organization. They won't change it, they haven't for over a thousand years. We cannot "show them a better way" or re-educate them. It is not the people, it is the criminal organization that has as one if its FOUNDATIONS the murder of innocents, all people who do not follow their beiliefs. Islam must be eliminated, now, or later, or it will destroy civilization.

I think it was very clear that I was critical of the above poster. I was not expecting you as conservatives to respond. I was expecting you as decent human beings to respond.

You can't call me a hypocrite for wondering whether you adhere to your principles. I think anyone can see from my time here that I am civil and loving and internally consistent with my arguments whether you use your right to agree or disagree with them.

VVL, is it really a good trait to always demand more of others without any empathy for their position? Short of renouncing their faith, what could thoughtful Muslim do to "satisfy" your criticisms?

Everyone could be more active on every issue. I guess I'm just surprised because in my associations with Muslim activists, they are very involved with opposing militant Islamic groups.

I wasn't calling anyone any names. I was just stating a fact: if you hold Muslims more responsible for people whom they have no interaction with just because they are also self-identifying as Muslims, then that shows bigotry. You can call that good or bad, but I don't see the logical explanation for it. I'm not any more responsible for the billion plus people in China than you are.

If you are anti-gay marriage, or anti-Muslim, proudly voice your belief. But don't try to shut off criticism of that belief. I just don't believe that it speaks highly of your respect for the institution of marriage if you think it is contingent on the sexual equipment of the partners.

In fact, such a belief does a good job explaining the high divorce rate--a lot of people have no clue what IS important about marriage.

"So someday, when that actually happens, and people are still going on and on about how their hatred and vitriole and stupid blog posts against Muslims are justified because “the Muslims aren't saying anything against Muslim extremism”, perhaps we can agree that they just have a bigoted axe to grind and are happy to revel in their own ignorance?"

This was directed at me because I was the only one saying anything about Muslim orgs not doing things I suggested would be helpful to them. Gee, if you weren't trying to insult me then I don't know what you'd call that. Resorting to belittling comments is a sure sign of a weak rebuttal. Did I disparage Muslims? No. Did I call them names? No. Did I voice an anti Muslim opinion? No. Just keep twisiting what I say. What I said, and follow closely here, was that Muslims orgs who have influence should make efforts to use that influence and be more public denouncing those extremists that paint their religion in a bad light. Press releases that media outlets can easily ignore is not exactly gathering a few thousand people together, or even a few hundred, and denouncing the violence that is being committed in the name of their religion by extremists. That would surely get the media involved. Continue to twist my posts all you want, but it still doesn't negate that there are options Muslim org can exercise to make their view more prominent. If I were anti-Muslim I wouldn't be encouraging them to be more vocal in order to get their message out now would I? Keep twisting and spinning. Don't let me down.

One final point. It was your attempt at intimidation through name calling in order to silence me that I find offensive and continued attacks on my intellect clearly shows how intellectual bereft you truly are. You use the time old lib tactic of attack the person as a bigot/racist/hopmophobe etc to get them to shut up. If you don't want to see such comments don't cloak your hate by attacking another person, but say it loud and clear!

xian,

So, you were waiting for someone else to denounce RTWOS statements because you were waiting for a decent human being to respond, not because you were waiting for a conservative to respond. Does that mean that you didn't denounce it yourself because .... uhhh, you... think...umm.. you're not a decent human being?

To be fair, you should have a third picture of "Faith in Action:" Fred Phelps and his merry band of whackjobs heckling the family of a dead soldier at his funeral, waving their "God Hates Fags" signs. Muslim extremists aren't the only idiots out there.

"This blog encourages dissenting opinion and civilized discussions. It is moderated and that is their right. If it were not moderated, civilized discussion would decend into the gutter, and many who post here would stay away. Those are the rules of the game here."

I couldn't have said it any better. Free speech aside, there are certain standards for debate that we should follow. Think of the best liberal or conservative commentators. They use reason to convince, not cheap bomb-throwing hate. I mean, Jerry Springer is titilating and he has freedom of speech to have a program that sells but his standards are rock bottom.

Laslo: "Muslim extremists aren't the only idiots out there."

Very true.

xian,

So, you were waiting for someone else to denounce RTWOS statements because you were waiting for a decent human being to respond, not because you were waiting for a conservative to respond. Does that mean that you didn't denounce it yourself because ”¦. uhhh, you”¦ think”¦umm.. you're not a decent human being?

___________

Yes, that's it exactly. After all, it was really difficult to tell from my comments that I disapproved of the comments. I spend pretty much every waking moment of every day dealing with these issues and researching and educating on them. If you want to make this a personal issue, by all mean, go non-anonymous and tell me what gives you the right to take this ridiculous tack to what I'm saying.

After all, we can go totally meta on here, and spend a lot of time discussing about how since I didn't brush my teeth the way you want me to, I must be anti-Islamic or something, but all I am arguing is that people are not more responsible for the actions of others just because you decide to draw them into the same identity group as some crazy people.

For example, a Caucasian person is not more responsible for all of the actions of all other Caucasian people than I or anyone else is.

We Christians are not somehow more responsible for the violent, racist strains of the faith just because they claim to worship the same God, which to me appears to bear no resemblance to the one I feel my bond of faith to.

Do you agree or disagree with this?

I would hope that you consider this to be an important issue, far more important that your nitpicking of my posting style which I'm sure we can just agree to disagree on.